Your opinion about the Hiroshima And Nagasaki bombings

Never mind democracies. It is the Soviet dominated Communist countries who were the real bastions of peace.

Did there ever in the history of the world one Soviet dominated Communist country go to war with another Soviet dominated Communist country? Never.

There is your receipe for peace. Ressurect the Soviet Union and have it dominate the whole world = peace on Earth.—Marko

Marko,

your statement is manifestly absurd, ignorant, and wrong.

for example, the USSR has invaded Hungary, Czechoslovakia, China, and Afghanistan in a span of less than 25 years.

Moreover, China invaded Vietnam in response to Vietnam’s invasion of Cambodia and Laos — ALL communist nations.

Virtually every communist nation has preyed on its neighbors, irrespective of whether that nation is communist or free.

The sad fact is that these anarchists really believe this nonsense that they have been spoon fed by largely leftwing kooks like chomsky.

They really believe that there is no moral difference between the USA and regimes like china and russia who have systematically murdered tens of millions of their own citizenry.

chloe,

I explained in an earlier post that nation building and conventional wars were unsustainable. I stated that the alternative was providing support for proxies (the Reagan doctrine). For example, we have far more leverage in undermining hostile autocratic regimes by supporting friendly insurgent groups within these nations. More importantly, this strategy costs far less in men and material, indeed zero casualties would be incurred by US troops.

Read my post, I stated I would reduce the capital gains tax. moreover, I would favor equivalent reductions for all types of business, irrespective of whether they were corporations, sole proprietorships, et al. Your statement that the Reagan revolution failed because they reduced taxes is absurd. Reducing taxes does not equate to bigger government. It was politically impossible for even Reagan to force a democratic congress to cut programs. Indeed, as bloom as stated repeatedly – cuttting govvernment is difficult at best. However, today both the UK and Germany have announced ambitious plans to make significant cuts in government spending. it will happen in the USA soon, since our present entitlement programs are unsustainable.

Note that there have been studies that have concluded that a government that consumes approximately 20% of GDP leads to the strongest economic growth. government consumption as a percentage of gdp above and below that 20% standard leads to reductions in growth.

You say you would end the Fed, but it will never happen, it can’t happen because of $13 trillion in debt, $1.5 trillion deficits, $60 trillion in unfunded liabilities (Ron Paul has made his point, but he can’t possibly expect the Fed will actually be ended since it is the ultimate source for government spending, and Congress knows it.) Who sounds naive and who sounds realistic, you or me?–chloe

then What would you do ??? Note that whining is not a policy response.

you assertion that it is naive to disband an agency – the Fed – that was established to save banks, strengthen the dollar, and moderate the severity cyclical downturns is naive. Why?..because the Fed has failed on all counts.

We have lost thousands of banks since 1913, the dollar has declined 96%, and the cyclical downturns have been severe. Moreover, the government’s propensity to print its way out of trouble is despotic and destructive. These are self-evident truths that will need to be addressed and corrected as the deficit further expands. within our lifetime, many of the wasteful, inefficient, and corrupt government enterprises will be removed, including the abuse of printing money, redistribution of wealth, stimulus spending, and artificial manipulation of the credit markets because these abuses of government have made our present economic path unsustainable.

I’ll check out the sources you cited later, my media player is slow at this computer.

Oh no, no, you are wrong. Hungary, Czchoslovakia… these were not wars. No. They were interventions in the interest of peace. These countries threatened to cease being Soviet dominated Communist countries! This could not be allowed since it is well known that countries which are not Communist and Soviet-dominated can be prone to war. Communism and Soviet domination had to be maintained since it is the best guarantee for peace.

It was that rabble which threatened the system in Budapest and Prague that wanted war really. Fortunately they were thwarted and prospects for peace preserved!

And at least one of the countries in the conflict was not Soviet-dominated. It was missing one of the two vital ingrediments. It was a lesser form of a Communist country, much more peaceful than a democracy, but not as peaceful as a high-order Communist dictatorship.

It only goes to show that China etc should had never been allowed to regress and shake off Soviet domination.

Oh no, no, you are wrong. Hungary, Czchoslovakia… these were not wars. No. They were interventions in the interest of peace. These countries threatened to cease being Soviet dominated Communist countries! This could not be allowed since it is well known that countries which are not Communist and Soviet-dominated can be prone to war. Communism and Soviet domination had to be maintained since it is the best guarantee for peace.

It was that rabble which threatened the system in Budapest and Prague that wanted war really. Fortunately they were thwarted and prospects for peace preserved!

And at least one of the countries in the conflict was not Soviet-dominated. It was missing one of the two vital ingrediments. It was a lesser form of a Communist country, much more peaceful than a democracy, but not as peaceful as a high-order Communist dictatorship.

It only goes to show that China etc should had never been allowed to regress and shake off Soviet domination.–marko

Marko,

If your being sarcastic, you have to excuse me for being slow on the take. but I have debated leftist that would agree with this “logic”

However, if your serious – I will let your comments speak for themselves.

its more satire than sarcasm

That is nothing, I have seen American exceptionalists argue the same case.

‘Well the author of Rosevelt’s Road to Russia [referenced in this topic and which I just read] claims the Soviet contribution to Japan’s defeat was “nill”.’

The soviets declared war on Japan a week before surrender. Another minor reason they dropped the bomb to speed things up.

‘why didnt the japanese just accept unconditional surrender and be done with the war ???’

Two Words: Unequal Treaties.

‘why is it that the USA is the “bad guy” ??’
War rarely has good guys

‘didnt the japanese have the ability to end the war unilaterally to save their own citizens?’

Yes they did. However, the government is not the people and throughout history it can be shown that the government will not put the people first unless their regime is facing extreme danger or collapse.

‘why was it America’s responsibility to save enemy combatants?’

Save them in what sense? Do you mean ‘Don’t shoot enemy combatants that surrender’?

‘why was the onus always on the USA with you America haters ??’

A keen sense of history and actual understanding of the lead up and justification for said war.

marko,

do you seriously see a moral equivalency between the USA and the USSR ?!

moreover, many of these anarchists think that eastern europe, central america, and the asian pacific rim were better off with communist regimes dotting the geopolitic.

history has shown that the USSR and the communist atttempt at expansion via violent and destabilizing means was the causal factor for many of the problems inthese areas prior to the establishment of US hegemony. INdeed, since the end of the USSR, peace, stability, prosperity, and freedom has prevailed in areas where the US maintains hegemony.

cain,

“unequal treaties” ?!! explain this statement cain.

tell me an example of a recent “good war” cain

and clarify your bizarre statement that the Americans killed civilians who surrendered. From my history lesson, the Americans were benevolent occupiers.

Lastly, how would an handwringing pacifist like yourself conduct the war to defeat powers like germany and japan in the absence of strategic bombing?

I enjoy a good laugh so please elaborate on these.

Yeah, he looks pretty benevolent. I’d hang out with him some time.

@snowflake,

You must be one of the very few on these pages that then does not use the what ought to be is.. argument. That confuses their own views on morality, what ought to be, with facts, what is. In my opinion Murray Rothbard was such a person. Hayek and Nozick took the position that I view as the only possible one, we know only as much as we know now and there are no final solutions on how to create a perfect society given for all times.

I just finished reading Robert Nozicks’s Anarchy, State, and Utopia. He rebutted Rothbard and Rawls. He showed the superiority of the Minarchist views (derived from Hayek) to Rothbard’s natural rights based anarchic state. We don’t know which of the positions is correct, we however know that anything further than the Minarchist state is not justifiable.

I get personally offended when Rothbardian anarchists call my Hayekian/Nozickian Minarchist views “Statist”. If you have such a limited perspective, you are so dogmatic that you aren’t even worth the time of day to discuss with.

Your position on that the only legitimate tool to change society is by education is as far as I can see a pure Rothbardian anarchist position, a minority position even within the libertarian spectrum. It’s not the only one, nor should it be.

I’ve finished discussing the issue of the atom bombings since most, but not you, are unable to separate their “what ought to be” from “what is/were”. Most annoying is that they still assume that the Allies could have accepted anything less than unconditional surrender after the Potsdam Declaration (Ultimatum).

My position on the bombings as such is that they ended the war. They saved a million Allied soldiers lives. Was it justified? To that there is no good answer, a tentative answer is yes since the extensive fire bombings of Japan in general and Tokyo in particular were far more devastating in human lives than the atom bombings. I personally can’t see any difference in killing a couple of hundred thousand people by firestorm created by TNT or by nuclear fission bombing. The end result is the same.

That it was a war crime is undisputable.

However I have very large difficulty in the anarchist position on war, it to me seems very close to pacifism. For me not an option if met by aggression! Enough said!

olovetto,

are you now reduced to symbolic minutia, citing criminal conduct from isolated support personnel poorly led and subsequently imprisoned?

for example, if you cant beat them with substantive facts and logic, find an emotionally charged graphic devoid of strategic context and spin away

Obviously, I could cite thousands of graphic sources showing the torture associated with the saddam regime, and japan too.

if you cant beat them with substantive facts and logic

I think you lost the battle like 8 pages ago where you scoffed at me pointing out your ignorance of what methodological individualism is and said it was a pointless philosophical problem. Yes, I know that there is no winning versus trolls. I’m just amused with your delusions, like that the US exhibits any 1 of those points of a “higher order democracy”. The “facts” you cited listing states such as Pennsylvania and Maryland as countries was funny too.

elsie,

Note that finland and UK didnt actually engage in great battles and lengthy campaigns resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands. In addition, I dont know if either would be consider higher order democracies by today’s definition (see Freedom House). Finland was allied with germany to balance the greater threat from the USSR. Of course, the rigid anarchist ideologues would not understand this concept since they unfairly rail against America for doing the same throughout history. Moreover, I stated earlier in this thread that it is possible for democracies to engage in conflict, however these will be rare and the losses minimal when compared to wars involving despots.

Indeed, we have seen lesser democracies engage in short sharp conflicts that have been resolved without great loss of life or property. Recently, ecuador and peru, i think. With respect to israel, the USA , and the USS Liberty — I dont think israel can be considered a higher order democracy by any objective measure. I think that any arab citizen living within its borders would testify to that. Moreover, they are at risk from all sides, so naturally many liberties we take for granted in higher order democracies are absent in israel.

your examples, actually prove my point that it is extremely unlikely that the more free a nation the less likely it will engage in conflict with another free nation. For example, the threshold for war is greater when the antagonists are both democracies, the more democratic, the greater the threshold.

I have only read a few reviews of Kant. However, I havent read Layne’s critique, if it is polemic I would like to read it, since I may have been indirectly swayed by Kant’s views on democracy and peace and an opposing view would be in order.

Does democracy promote peace? We are told continually that it does. Let’s compare the rhetoric to the reality.

Not to be confused with a republic, a democracy is a system in which, theoretically, what the majority says goes. The reality, however, is more complex and much uglier. In a democracy, various political elites struggle for control of the state apparatus by appealing to the material interests of large voting blocks with promises of legalized graft.

Thus, we may modify our definition of democracy to mean a system in which our rulers are chosen by a majority of those who bother to show up on election day, exclusive of those who lack the minimal mental skills required to cast a lawful ballot.

In modern democracies, individuals allegedly retain certain rights that cannot be overridden by the majority. Who defines and enforces those rights? Officials chosen by the majority. So much for individual rights in a democracy. Probably the most salient feature of modern democracy is the bizarre notion that whatever the majority says constitutes sublime moral principle.

In truth, democracy is nothing more than the numerous bullying the less numerous. It is an elaborate rationalization for the strong in numbers to impose their will on the electorally weak by means of centralized state coercion. What a formula for peace! If democratic states can impose their will on their own minority populations, why not impose their will on other countries, states, and peoples, particularly if they are not democratic? Strange it is, though, that pugnacious democrats always forget the principle of majority rule when war comes. They have never sought the prior consent of the majority of the inhabitants of the nations they seek to conquer, subdue, and rule.

Modern democracies tend to extensively intervene in the free market by means of high taxes, welfare, and subsidies in order to buy the votes that keep the politicians in power. As Ludwig von Mises demonstrated, each intervention into the economy causes problems that lead to the demand for ever further interventions. Government thereby creates its own demand. Eventually, the economic problems become intractable, leading to the inevitable temptation to create a foreign policy distraction. Combine that with the fact that war, while undeniably harming the economy, gives the appearance of stimulating the economy, and we have a formula for why democratic governments would have a motive for war. Any similarities between this discussion and FDR’s desperate bid to get us into World War Part II is purely intentional.

Democracies also have the means to fight wars. Analysts of war spend too much time thinking about why wars are fought and far too little time contemplating the means of war. The resources for war are acquired by conscription, taxation, confiscation, and inflation. Without cannon and cannon fodder, there are no wars. With their aura of legitimacy, democracies are particularly adept at utilizing all these means. Since citizens tend to identify with the democratic state, there is usually little trouble conscripting troops and confiscating the economic resources required for war.

True, democracies rarely fight each other. That’s like saying that seven-foot-tall men rarely fight each other. There just haven’t been that many democracies around in the last 150 years, and, furthermore, six of them are English-speaking countries. What are they going to fight about—their accents? Democracies do, however, like to fight non-democracies. They did so in World War Parts I and II. Suppose they gave a war and the democracies didn’t show up.

But, you may say, the non-democracies started all these wars. Really? The United States was looking for any excuse to get into World War Part I—against Germany. Examination of the international law quagmire that led to American involvement in World War Part I leads me to conclude that the United States had four options: declare war on Germany, declare war on England, declare war on both, or mind its own business. Democracies, however, do not seem to mind their own business. What is clear is that the scope of American involvement in that war far exceeded anything justified by the alleged cause of that involvement: German attacks on American shipping in the North Atlantic.

The United States has always seemed to get attacked just when its leaders were plotting to drag the nation into war by any means possible—Fort Sumter, Remember the Maine, the Lusitania, etc. What a relief; we got attacked. What about Japan and Pearl Harbor? It seems our mind-our-own-business democracy wanted Japan out of China. Our leaders wanted China in the hands of the mass murderer Chiang or the megamurderer Mao. An oil embargo was imposed on a country that had no oil. Thus, the United States provoked Japan into starting a war. That does not mean that Japan was justified, merely that it was, in its own mind, provoked. No democratic provocation, no war.

Two of the most important wars in modern history were fought in part for the express purpose of advancing democratic principles. In the case of World War Part I, this is well known. Woodrow Wilson called it the war “to make the world safe for democracy.” We have heard this refrain over and over again as the rationalization for war: in Korea, Viet Nam, the Balkans, Kuwait—oops, strike that, Kuwait was an Oriental despotism.

Lesser known is the role of the democratic idea in causing the most destructive war ever fought in the Western Hemisphere. Why did Lincoln order armies into peaceful old Virginia, which had not been involved in the attack on Fort Sumter? Let him speak for himself:

“[W]e divide upon [all our constitutional controversies] into majorities and minorities. If a minority . . . will secede rather than acquiesce [to the majority], they make a precedent which, in turn, will divide and ruin them; for a minority of their own will secede from them, whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority . . . the central idea of secession, is the essence of anarchy.” First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861. (For further discussion of this passage, see, J. Ostrowski, “Was the Union Army’s Invasion of the Confederate States a Lawful Act?” in Secession, State & Liberty, David Gordon, ed., [New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers, 1998]).

Thus, a substantial motive for Lincoln’s invasion of the South was to preserve the principle of majority rule, that is, the ability of the majority to impose its will on the minority. The War Between the States revealed the true nature of democracy as bullying. It just so happens that we usually put up with it, and the bullied minority is scattered throughout the nation. In the War Between the States, however, the bullied minority was clustered together and willing to fight. Democracy, ultimately, is majority rule at gunpoint. Such a philosophy is perfectly consistent with a tendency to fight wars.

Democracy’s main contribution to war is to encourage minority groups that feel exploited by the majority to attempt to secede. The bullying majority—like any slave master—rarely lets its subjects go in peace, and thus war breaks out. The provocateur is almost always the majoritarian state, and that state’s rationalization for fighting is always the preservation of the majority principle. Lincoln taught them well. In recent years, Lincolnian wars have raged in Northern Ireland, the Middle East, East Timor, Chechnya, Georgia, the Balkans, India, and elsewhere.

Perhaps the leading cause of war in the foreseeable future will be the struggle of peoples who constitute a minority in their countries to escape from oppressive democratic majority rule by those animated by alien ethnic, cultural, religious, economic, or philosophic values.

In the meantime, there are still opportunities for good, old-fashioned wars caused by our bumbling, stumbling, holier-than-thou, democratic meddling all over the planet. Let me get this straight. The crisis over the incident in the South China Sea is really about Taiwan. We are so committed to the Taiwanese people’s right of self-determination that we supported Chiang Kai-shek and crew who, in the words of Joseph Stromberg, “imposed themselves on the Taiwanese people—in a near-perfect example of a conquest state.” Chiang had been so bad at running China—fourth-ranked mass murderer of the century—that he managed to make even Mao look good! Are you getting the feeling that the United States has never really had a clue about China?

Forget apologizing for what happened in the sky the other week, or for Bush’s recent remarks. Let’s apologize for one hundred years of meddling in China, and promise that in the future the Chinese will not have to put up with any activity off their shores that we wouldn’t tolerate off of ours.

But no, the forces of democratic meddling, the neoconservatives, have pushed for escalation of the conflict. They complain that a “superpower” should not be exposed to “public international humiliation.” Remember what happened the last time the empire was being subjected to an extended public humiliation. After it was beginning to look like the federal government was being made a fool of by a “bunch of religious nuts with guns,” they rolled in a tank, and eighty-one people were killed. Gentlemen, you are not dealing with David Koresh here.

Does democracy—institutionalized coercion—promote peace? No. The only thing that promotes peace is peace, which is just another name for individual liberty.

From here.

I think you lost the battle like 8 pages ago where you scoffed at me pointing out your ignorance of what methodological individualism is and said it was a pointless philosophical problem. Yes, I know that there is no winning versus trolls. I’m just amused with your delusions, like that the US exhibits any 1 of those points of a “higher order democracy”. The “facts” you cited listing states such as Pennsylvania and Maryland as countries was funny too.–olovetto

Your losing it olovetto. this is not the first time you have mixed up contributors to this thread. for example, produce the quote that I stated Penn. and Maryland were nations?

save your amusement for the “delusional” researchers and analysts at Freedom House since they have identified the USA as a higher order democracy using real world criteria — as opposed to the fantasyland lens that the anarchists apparently view the world.

Lastly, i think it is plain to see the source of your ad hominen rebuts, you are reacting to my criticism of your diatribes on this thread.

Note that the anarchist dogma the you adhere to has no practical value. For example, it is a fantasy. There are no anarchic states today and there will be no anarchic states in the future. Like communism, it is an unsustainable ideal promoted by “why is there air?” pondering extremists without a practical understanding of the real machinations of society. Hence the anarchist’s assertions that the atom bomb while horrific was inconsequential in the japanese surrender. the emperor was kidding when he said the bomb was the rationale for surrender. The USSR and the USA are moral equivalents. Democracies are always fighting democracies. macarthur is a manaic, but I will cite him anyway. the USA should have accepted japan’s conditional surrender terms and allowed one of the primary principals to escape war crime prosecution. the soviet union wasnt a threat to world peace despite the invasion of korea by one of its proxies. et al.

fantasyland at disneyworld should have an anarchist ride adjacent to the welfare state ride.

Not to be confused with a republic, a democracy is a system in which, theoretically, what the majority says goes–olovetto

it took me 2 seconds to identify the whole premise of your diatribe is wrong. for example, stop putting words into my mouth.

“democracy” is cited in the general sense. For example, if you took the time to read the methodology of my sources you would understand that “democracy” includes republics, democracies, constitutional monarchies, et al.

freedom house (nor my definition) does not refer to a specific form of government, it refers to tenets of governance and society in general that promote civil liberties and political rights.

I would debate this. But for the record, Rothbard is not the superauthority on anything anarcho capitalist. He’s a very good advocate and promoter of ancap and AE, but I do not believe he’s a very good philosopher. At least all of the time.

If you’re arguing about total knowledge of how an ancap society would work, I would press you that you don’t know how a minarchist, or even a totalitarian society would work, since we don’t have full knowledge of those things either. I fall back on theory as my guide. I don’t think there’s a third option.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I mentally don’t lump you in with the state communists. I suppose its possible for a minarchist to subscribe to a free market in national defense, but still want a state around for welfare programs. So fine, I won’t even lump you in with the minarchists. Hayekian then.

Yes. Fine. I will allow that there might be other ways to bring ancap society about. If I could get ahold of some doomsday device, or if a totalitarian state just utterly collapsed and no one was able to gain control over its shattered pieces, these might work. But I think it is useful to point out that a state could again arise from the ashes of the old one, so long as it suffers sufficiently low setup costs. Support for a state would allow this.

I don’t think you’ve been following ERO’s line of reasoning, but whatever. In the future I plan to have all historical debates in a hypothetical alternate or future history where the statists (and hayekians) aren’t accountable for all the blunders made by the USA & Friends. Most of the history we know is wrong, and I don’t think its optimal to have to try and push political philosophy AND historical re-education at the same time.

So, for example, if someone asks me how ancap would solve WWII, I’m saying i’d rather just debate how an ancap would stop it if genocidal radioactive eskimo zombies started taking over Canada. This allows the enemy to be 100% evil aggressors, with no chance of surrender, and no chance of avoiding a fight.

Aww don’t read Rettoper. In the same way that the freh market produces more and better shoes and wristwatches for everyone, we predict would produce more and better security. I don’t see how we’re pacifist because self defense is always legitimate.

I would argue that Statists and Hayekians have more of a pacifist element to them, because they worry about the foreign bandits, but leave the domestic bandits (so long as they aren’t too terrible). So you have to compromise on the doctrine of self defense.

olovetto,

in response to your lengthy emotional diatribe attacking representative governance.

in the absence of the “evil” United States and representative governance — what would the anarchist have done to remove monarchism, institutional slavery, imperialism, fascism, communism, islamic extremism.

Note that you cant enlist your fantasyland anarchic society to combat these systems since anarchic societies are unsustainable, hence none exist. Even communism has a better track record than anarchism.

or do you think that individual freedoms and the destruction of the nation-state will just materialize with a global group hug and a soulful rendition of kumbaya?

or perhaps you think that “market forces” will distract or deter alexander the great, ceasar, genghis khan, napoleon, hitler, stalin, mao, saddam, et al?

or do you think the world would be a better place with these systems in power rather than democracy?

In summary, in the absence of the promotion of representative governance through soft power and when absolute necessary hard power, what practical solution to the problems of mankind does the anarchist offer other than philosophical hot air?

In reality, the system of governance that has most efficiently promoted life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness throughout the ages has been representative government spearheaded by the United States since 1776. IN contrast, the primary sources of conflict and human suffering have been the utopians on the Left and the Right — most notably the marxists in recent history.

This fact is irrefutable.

indeed, the USA has been at the forefront of removing the most debilitating statist systems known to man. the enemies of the USA have been monarchism, oligarchic slave societies, imperialism, fascism, communism, and islamic extremism — all by any objective, rational, and independent thinking measure brutal and destructive systems. moreover, democracy ( representative government) is unique in that it is relatively benevolent to its citizenry, peaceful to like governments, politically dynamic, and terrible to threatening autocratic regimes. Fortunately, representative governments like the USA have demonstrated both the will and the means to defend themselves and even expand among competing ideologies and systems while remaining peaceful and cooperatve with like minded democracies.

For example, they are the best system, albeit not perfect, for both promoting freedom, creating wealth, and defending these from predation. In contrast, utopian fantasyland systems favored by anarchist have been abject failures throughout history at promoting their ideological goals.

In summary, representative government is a sustainable and expanding system that has led to improvements in prosperity, freedom, and stability in the nations and regions where it holds sway. Indeed, since 1776, the globe has seen significant increases in life expectancy, technological advances, civil liberties,and political freedoms. No doubt we have seen setbacks in the trend, and the system is by no means perfect and without reproach, however the overall march of individual freedoms across the globe continues relatively unchecked thanks to this oft criticized system.