9/11 Truth

@Clayton Read the reviews on amazon of the book that that website is based on. The differences are because people, at different times and with different techniques, tried to add color.

Having said that there are obvious errors where the film has been tampered with.

@onebornfree http://www.abbaswatchman.com/NEWS%20PROJECT%20BLUE%20BEAM.html

Trying to discredit people on the ground, while i will admit that there is a possiblity that there were ground 0 witness hoaxes, i think that bluebeam is a wet dream of religious/alien conspiracies and unlikely to be the reason why the perps would do it.

and if anything, global warming or climate change, would make more sense with the ends of the bluebeam alien stuff, not 9/11.

Jacob, sir, before I respond to any of this, I want to know whether you’ve read the report of the Warren Commission and/or the House Select Committee on Assassinations; or, if not, what other mainstream accounts of the assassination you have read before coming to this conclusion. I’d also like to know whether you are denying that whatever his motivations may have been, Oswald and Oswald alone pulled the trigger.

No, i’m not gonna claim to have read them. Have you? I’ve heard plenty of ‘mainstream’ accounts of it. Not denying that Oswald was a shooter (he claimed he wasn’t, but of course, he could lie). Yes, i think there probably was more than one shooter.

And before you jump on me for accussing the US government of doing it, it seems likely that it was a network (conspiracy) acting in their own interest not on behalf of any agency or group. When i said the CIA lead the force and JCoS signed off, i meant on the Op40 stuff. JFK was part of it.

Do you think that we were told everything about it? or that Oswald woke up one day and was like. “FUCK JFK IM GONNA KILL HIM THE NEXT TIME I SEE HIM?”

EDIT: Warren is almost 1000 pages of bs. Why the fuck would jack ruby “act alone” in killing someone who is already in custody? what would he be mad about? either that he killed JFK or that he didn’t? which makes more sense? i say bs because no one else bought it that’s why there was the HSCoA as well as numerous otrher inquires into the CIA in the 60’s & 70’s(MKULTRA if you want to know about LSD and “public health experiments”)

Rreading on the HSCoA. They basically admit that it was a conspiracy and through the language of white papers say that theit “best guess” would be the “influences” from the cuban mafia (informants) and the cia (operatives, not agents). Hmmmmm

Also, Cal Who killed Aldo Moro?

Nonsense. You can’t get pincushion distortion from adding color. As the website clearly shows, the whole film is a complete fabrication. Fetzer’s hypothesis is that the limo came to a full stop at one point* and this is the reason they had to fabricate the film to begin with… to hide the limo stop. While I’m skeptical about the no-planes hypothesis, the idea that the footage beamed out by the media on 9/11 had been prepared beforehand in order to avoid the sort of problem they had with the Zapruder film is not beyond belief. I would assume the same criminal elements that were involved in JFK’s assassination were also involved in 9/11.

Clayton -

*Watch the clip surrounded by this text: “at exactly the same time, all four people lurch forward suddenly:You don’t need to know the laws of physics to know what this means: the car must have braked suddenly at that time. But if you watch the film, the car doesn’t brake at all!”

i know man i read that whole page, then the amazon reviews of the book. The brake thing was the biggest eye opener on it, and the street sign and road sign.

Watch this - the FBI knew the day after JFK was shot that Oswald was NEVER in mexico and that it was likely a soviet spy that was using his name…

and this - CIA is hiding something important.

Well duh CIA is hiding something… CIA probably created the Zapruder film, they were the only ones employing people with that kind of skill.

But as one quote from a news article on this subject says,

Mr. Posner, the anti-conspiracy author, said that if there really were something explosive involving the C.I.A. and President Kennedy, it would not be in the files — not even in the documents the C.I.A. has fought to keep secret.

“Most conspiracy theorists don’t understand this,” Mr. Posner said. “But if there really were a C.I.A. plot, no documents would exist.”

Duh. Why would anyone preserve inculpatory evidence against themselves??

Clayton -

Speaking for myself, the no-planers theory is very simple and logical.

It starts with hard [verified] scientific evidence, not with hearsay evidence [i.e. unverifiable “eyewitness” testimony].

It simply says that given fundamental laws of physics, it is scientifically impossible for hollow airliners with 2mm thick aluminum skins and plastic noses to fly completely into/ inside 500,000 ton buildings constructed with steel girders and concrete :

[1] in one piece [like a hot knife through butter]

[2] without slowing down ,

[3] without losing any parts, or having wing and/or tail sections shearing off at impact as forward motion of the fuselage is slowed.

Therefor, given the impossibility of such events, logically, any/all videos that depict such a scientifically impossible event must be fakes.

For example: http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2008/10/air-versus-skyscraper-shortest-simplest.html

Furthermore, when closely examined, and for the moment ignoring the impossibility of the event depicted [ but bearing it very much in mind in mind and continuing examination of said videos with suspicions duly raised ,simply because of that previously concluded scientific impossibility of the events depicted ], close analysis of every one these “plane into/through building” videos show very obvious, multiple signs of fakery [that I will not bother to list here ], and reveal that all of of them are nothing more than badly rendered computer generated composites.

No-planers typically do not say that no planes were in the area- it is possible that they were, and this is what some witnesses may have seen. They only say that no witnesses saw live, in the flesh, Flights 11 and 175 penetrate the walls of WTC1 and 2 respectively in one piece, as the videos falsely show.

Any “witness” who claims to have witnessed such an event live is either lying or is very confused and traumatized to the degree that they now remember events they saw on TV as being live. Some even have gone so far to claim that as with other parts of the 9/11 deception, because they saw it “live on TV” , that they actually saw it live, and simply refuse to , or are incapable of , differentiating between the two entirely different states of observation.

Your Choices

Like anyone else, you have a very clear simple choice in this matter :

[1] to believe in the simple, immutable laws of fundamental physics [specifically Newton’s 3rd Law of Motion], or,

[2] to instead continue to believe in unknown [i.e. complete strangers] , non-cross-examined testimony despite the fact that even the governments own enforcers [the cops] are on record as saying that witness testimony is historically, consistently the most unreliable testimony to rely on in any case, bar none.

So what’s it to be, hard science or hearsay? The choice is yours.

Regards, onebornfree.

that video is the smallest piece of evidence that one can fathom.

and this

don’t fucking insult people’s intelligence. This is a false choice you idiot troll. Either one leads to agreeance to your ‘facts’, i think it’s called Card Stacking. The choice you want me to make is the one you yourself are trying to make…([Projection]) not the planes, but your pyschology.

Besides, I’m not relying on them you are.

have you ever seen a bullet go through glass? or a Depleted Uranium round go through two blocks of tank armor? I’m pretty sure a plane going …700mph? could disappear into the network of steel beams; i’d imagine it would look like paper through a shredder. Plane metal is not titanium, they need to be light enough to fly.

The best evidence i’ve seen for media manipulation was doubling the length of the smoke trails from the first tower to mask the flight pattern and steep entry of plane 2. They might have been radio or computer controlled

I’ve heard this before. Pure conjecture.

You know how bureaucracies function. Look at Project Northwoods. Look at Osama bin Laden. Look at Iran/Contra, Look at REX 84. look at Noriega, look at the the OKC bombing, or the 1993 WTC bombings, or this new Obama scandal Fast and Furious; all conspiracies. All of the paperwork is there, among the people with whom it circulates, the actions are justified.

Your choice of language here proves your own distinct lack of intelligence My “bad” for assuming you had any in the first place, or any manners, for that matter, I suppose.

As if you believe the words “fucking” "idiot or “troll” will intimidate or somehow make your “argument” stronger . In reality merely the words of a desperate, petty little loser.

All future responses to my posts by yourself will henceforth be ignored- have a nice life Mr loud[and foul] mouth, and perhaps consider growing up one day?

[And by the way, airliners do not routinely fly at 700mph at 1000 ft altitude. In fact they typically have a cruising speed of 500 mph at 40,000 ft. where the air is 25% of the density it is at 1000 ft. and lower. Because the air is x4 denser at 1000ft even 500mph is impossible for commercial jets at that altitude.]

onebornfree.

@Clayton, watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPU572UY0r0&feature=relmfu

LaRouche explains how the DoJustice was the dept in charge of his assassination. Reagan axed it.

@ onebornfree, please. You’ve got nothing and don’t pretend you didn’t insult me first. Go ahead ignore me; I am a plane flying into the side of a building and thousands of people saw why wouldn’t you?

And anyone else notice how oneborn avoids ALL of the contrary evidence and fixates on my “informal” language. Cognitive dissonance (sung by harmonizing angels)

Good. Usually, when I talk to conspiracy theorists, they all claim they’ve read the Warren Report, even all 26 volumes of hearings and evidence, and it’s not long before they say something that makes it very clear that they have not. I guess I’m happier to hear that you’ve jumped to a conclusion about what’s in the report without reading it than I’d be to hear that you’d seen all the evidence and rejected it, though. You seem like a reasonable man.

Well, to begin with, the source of the allegation that Oswald met Ferrie at CAP is Jack S. Martin, who told authorities that it was just speculation on his part. Both the FBI and the Secret Service found Martin to be a very unreliable witness based on his alcoholism, mental health, and history of furnishing false information to law enforcement, and closed their investigation of the matter having failed to establish any link between Oswald and Ferrie. Neither did Ferrie have any association for the CIA, as noted in a September 28, 1967 memo from the CIA to the Department of Justice clearing up what suspects in the Clay Shaw case did and did not ever work for the CIA.

If Oswald’s communism was only a cover for his very important espionage work, he must have been recruited quite early on. In December 1963, the Socialist Party of America discovered in its archives an October 3, 1956 letter from the 16-year old Oswald identifying himself as a Marxist and expressing an interest in becoming active in party activities. Oswald’s high school friend William Wulf testified to his father once expelling Lee from his home when he started talking about how superior communism was, and Oswald’s Marine buddies, who often discussed politics and current events with him, all knew his preferred social system was communism. Of course, when Oswald defected to the Soviet Union, the government there was highly suspicious of his loyalties and kept him under close surveillance. They found no evidence that he was a spy, and if they had, they would have released it in order to expose the conspiracy and embarrass the United States.

Allan Dulles—So he thought the president could have been doing a better job? A lot of people do. Where’s the evidence to tie him to the assassination?

George H. W. Bush—I don’t know why you write of Bush’s transition from the business world to DCI as if it were sudden or unusual. Was his long political and diplomatic career prior to that, in which he served as Ambassador to the United Nations and Chief of the US Liaison Office in China, all part of the cover? I find nothing suspicious about George Bush’s resume.

“The Mafia”—Which family? Which members?

LBJ & RMN—Johnson and Nixon were no angels, but even if the Nixon-CIA connection is established, I don’t think the CIA-JFK connection is established. I would be interested in proof that Jack Ruby ever worked for Congress or the Mafia, if it exists.

This is a very minor point, but I have to note that the chairman of the Warren Commission was not Allen Dulles, it was Earl Warren. That’s why it’s called the Warren Commission. But this leads into the larger point that there were more members on the commission than Allen Dulles, and what you’re suggesting is that the Chief Justice of the United States, Senators, Congressmen, distinguished public servants, men who had worked for years to get where they were, got together, probably with the better part of their staff, and all agreed that it would be best to make themselves complicit in the crime of the century. They would have known that when the deception was discovered, as it surely would be, they would go down in history as the men who disgraced themselves and their offices by covering up the murder of the president. Who could have even summoned the courage to even approach his fellow members with such a proposition? I mean, really think about this: you’re saying that Earl Warren, a man who would not countenance the conviction of one Ernesto Miranda because he had not been advised of his rights, participated in a fascist coup d’etat by running a fake investigation and issuing a bullshit report.

I think that if you read the much-maligned Warren Report, you’ll come away with respect for their careful, thorough investigation. Reality is that the Warren Commission’s eager young staffers searched high and low for evidence of a conspiracy, knowing that exposing the plot would make their names. Nobody was more disappointed when the evidence mounted that it was just Oswald. Then there were the Republicans; if the Johnson administration had been trying to cover it up, Gerald Ford and John Sherman Cooper would have never signed that report, and they would have made it an issue in the 1964 election.

Then there was the HSCA. Far from just another establishment investigatory body that was obliged to “admit” there was a conspiracy, these were young guys who were certain that with their “real investigation,” they were going to expose a conspiracy reaching to the highest levels of power, like Jean-Louis Trintignant in Z. After their careful forensic, ballistic, and photographic research established that the shots fired by Oswald in full view of eyewitnesses, they seized upon “acoustic evidence,” later completely discredited, to conclude that there was probably also a shooter on the grassy knoll, though if there was, he missed—he missed JFK, he missed everyone else in the limo, he missed the limo itself, he missed all of the spectators standing behind the limo, and he missed all of the structures in Dealey Plaza. No suspects were identifed for this blind-as-a-bat CIA/Mafia/Pentagon/oil assassin, but if he existed, they concluded, there was probably some kind of conspiracy. Probably a good idea for them. Would you want newspapers reporting how many thousands of taxpayer dollars you spent on the new investigation that revealed it really was just Oswald?

As for whether Oswald was the type to wake up one morning and decide to kill JFK, you should read the testimony of his wife, Marina. She told the Warren Commission how one morning, she saw Lee going out with his revolver and asked him what it was for; he said that he was going to see Richard Nixon, and if he had the opportunity, he was going to take a shot at him. She begged and pleaded with him not to do it, and he relented. She also testified that Lee confessed to her that he had attempted to assassinate General Edwin Walker (a crime he is also implicated in by ballistic evidence), and that she had seen him burn his plans for the shooting in the bathtub.

Jack Ruby’s motive? He was telling people within minutes of shooting Oswald that he did it so the widow Kennedy wouldn’t have to come back to Dallas to testify in a trial that he didn’t think the son of a bitch deserved. See, for example, the testimony of Forest Sorrels and Barnard Clardy. If Jack Ruby was sent to silence Oswald, the conspirators certainly took their time: he had been in custody for two days, and police had interrogated him several times. If he was only a patsy, he could have spilled everything to the first TV station that stuck a camera in his face and asked, “did you kill the president?” Shooting Oswald in the abdomen was a real roll of the dice as well; an inch to the left, and he would have lived.

Re: Aldo Moro, I see no reason to doubt Mario Moretti’s confession.

Have you seen the pictures? caaause they are there. Seal, ferry, and oswald. These guys claim that Ferry was arrested for child molestation and was let go because the officers superiors let him go and said no questions asked. The officers who arrested him got death threats ensuring that they didn’t speak.

I cannot place spaces in my browser. http://www.amazon.com/Barry-Boys-Americas-Secret-History/dp/0970659105

Right i dont know what the fuck i was thinking. The mexican embassy person wasn’t really him it was a soviet spy using his name.

Do you understand the implications of moving against the thread of the banking families ties to the military brass who command the military/industrial complex? John Foster and Allen were bigger than anyone in the Kennedy family. Look at Rothbard’s Wall street, banks, and American foreign policy. Dulles were a kin to harriman/rockefeller interests.

i bet a lot of people would. Bush Sr. or “rubbers Bush” is a sociopath. He has smuggled drugs, laundered money, questionable religious affiliations (something i don’t care about at all except when it is as vainglorious and extravagant as his) pretty much you name it he can be implicated in it in one way or another. as well as the coincidence of the bay of pigs and op zapata. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKseal.htm

I have no idea. I only assume that they ‘wouldn’t have cared’ if someone wanted to off JFK. and could be there for resources, informants, etc. and below.

I’m not gonna provide the paperwork, but i will refer you to my suspicion that JFK cut the informal method of the JCoS and CIA to conduct missions beneath the nose of the president. The Bay of Pigs is this. RFK became the liaison between the JCoS and CIA, meaning that he was oversight before things got signed off on. Like i said before, JFK did away with the president’s plausible deniability. Also, the Op Northwoods papers were signed off on by the JCoS (1968 i think) and not the President.

Not quite. I was wrong on Dulles being the chairman. Has it not been established that the CIA co opts those investigations? Yes i think there are many high level people who are corrupt and that play the ‘deep politics’ game. Warren, no. But, look at the bohemian grove. Research what they discuss; it is not all fun and games. But, the investigation wasn’t trusted and that is why we have the NSCoA right? at least one reason. among 4.

No way. You are probably right about the staffers, but Ford, Johnson, Nixon, Bush, they are the ones who stay in power until, well…some would say the recent past. Ford is definitely complicit in a cover up. See what most people think is that because it is a bureaucracy that they will leave their names off of things and not admit things, but where is the first place people look for evidence? Official records. It makes more sense to distort rhetoric and circumstance for the record than to try and make issues and contention over them. We are talking about people who look up to Machiavelli, Trotsky, Strauss, Alinsky…

Good points. They don’t conflict with what i know about it. However, it did appear to me that they believe it had something to do with a cuban dissident group, but couldn’t prove it and that George Joannides had obstructed the investigation by not providing details of a crucial CIA asset “handling” the DRE and that that is where Oswald’s connection comes in. The CIA withheld documents regarding Joannide’s activities from 1962-1964. Those documents have been unearthed independent of the CIA and corroborated by the Chair of the HSCoA. I’ll provide a link cause it is new information. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6DAx4MipA&feature=player_embedded

http://milfuegos.blogspot.com/2009/10/truth-about-george-joannides-and-cias.html - for more info.

Watch this as well. It is a concealed conversation between LBJ and JEH the morning after. The FBI had confirmed that the Oswald report in Mexico City was in fact a Russian spy using his name as alias. This information is from 1999. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebaITZP6Fg8&feature=related

I have never heard any of this. I heard that his wife had cooperated, but never all of that. I have also heard that he had a woman that he saw in Baton Rogue or whetever that he had called a few times and said that his team has done something wrong and that he didn’t want to have anything to do with it. It was on the History channel, but the stopped airing it and selling the entire 10 part inquiry into the witness testimonies. They are on torrent sites still. And to be honest, i think it is easier for the government to bribe false witness for this type of thing than people think.

Again, something, that when placed in the convention of conspiracy will be explained away by people like me through simple bribery and duress. Gmen could have easily paid off or kicked out local police. Or secret service could kick out FBI. Jack Ruby, such a noble noble thing to do. The paradox of doing the right thing, nay, the chivalrous thing to do by shooting a suspect, like you said in a questionable area if intent was fatality.

well, it wasn’t so much which person did it. It was, after all, a group effort. The group , Red Brigade, was uncovered as a front group for NATO. NATO killed Aldo Moro. He was a casualty of Operation Gladio. I submit that JFK was too. George Joannides is the key to that. His DRE group set off and the soviets may have played off of it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldo_Moro#.22Sacrifice_Aldo_Moro_to_maintain_the_stability_of_Italy.22

You have summed up precisely the point of contention between myself and the orthodox view on JFK’s assassination or any of a number of other high-profile dirty affairs. The central motivation in pressing for a Sunday School interpretation of the events is exactly what you have said… that people in high places are generally persons of quality and character and that they are highly motivated by a desire to be well-perceived by future generations, and so on. These are all very flimsy reasons to come to any conclusion. To begin with, by construction no one actually on the Warren Commission was an insider, so they were all operating from a position of ignorance. It’s a very strange situation when an organization (the government) appoints an out-group to investigate the activities of an in-group that retains full power to stonewall and misdirect for the purposes of “national security”. We had a similar state of affairs with the 9/11 commission.

Any theory which begins by presuming that its originators were angels and could not have ulterior motives is a flawed theory. There is no reason why we should assume the people on the Warren Commission were ‘good people’ nor should we need to. The relevant facts and hypotheses ought to stand or fall on their own merit. This is called critical thinking.

Clayton -

You really don’t think that the 9/11 commission was made up of insiders?

It was like lawyers from Boeing and Lockheed, Blackwater, they wanted Henry Kissinger to head it, but the congress wouldn’t let him.

It was made up of reps from the corporations that were involved (or in the subsequent wars)

to clayton:

fetzer took a lot of pestering from morgan reynolds to come around to the no-planes camp, so outrageous does it sound. have you read piper collins’ final judgment on the jfk hit?

http://www.4shared.com/document/N_Bbv6iH/Final_Judgement_-_Michael_Coll.htm