Are they that stupid?

I have never delved deep into economics and mostly read mises.org, because it offers an interesting and unusual perspective upon politics and economy. The only somehow economic books i read so far are “Economics in one lesson” and “40th centuries of price control” or something like that.

For my impression austrian economics are at most good arguments, therefore im not fully convinced.

But what irritates me most, is that often it seems like stating the obvious. For example taking a whole book to argue, that smashing windows to increase the wealth of the community could be a stupid idea, looks a bit overblown. And that price fixing can ruin nations - well obviously if the price for all food is fixed at 1 dollar per 1000 tons and the price for diesel is fixed at 100 dollars per gallon legal food trade will be reduced to something close to 0, which means, that if enough black marcket crack down happens a lot of people will starve, which will ruin any nation. So not some rocket science.

Ok, the detail part could be complicated. (which window smashing does what economic damage? Can there be a kind of window smashing, which trhough some unknown psychological mechanism increases wealth in the long run? dito for price fixing)

But as far as i know, austrian economics does not offer the details, simply because it claims, that these details cannot be determined.

But now that i looked at detiled arguments of other economics, i fear, that stating the obivous is a very necessary task and that looking into details only confuses.

Take this “argument” by a “economist”:

“In the absence of financial intervention by the government, if one agent desires employment in order to increase his holdings of financial assets, another must decide to reduce his net financial assets for a transaction to take place. If no agent is willing to reduce his net financial assets, the desired sale of labor does not occur. This is defined as involuntary unemployment.”

" Thus, whenever the government engages in deficit spending, aggregate private sector H(nfa) is increased, with H(nfa) including offshore holdings of dollar denominated assets. Furthermore, the level of government deficit spending determines private sector H(nfa). Should the private sector desire to increase its H(nfa), this desire can be satisfied only by an increase in government deficit spending.

Unemployment can therefore be summarized as follows:

Involuntary unemployment is evidence that the desired H(nfa) of the private sector exceeds the actual H(nfa) allowed by government fiscal policy."

Can they be that stupid?

I mean, the only possible cause of unemployment is that, some people want higher number on their bank accounts and the government doesnt provide the deficit necessary for this?

I can think of a lot of other reasons, most notably, that the unemployed person offers a service no one wants. If i and nobody else buys burgers with truffle instead of slad pieces and very hot chilli sauce instead of ketchup for 50 dollars, then the reason could be, that nobody thinks the combination tasty and everybody prefers to eat truffle in a different kind of meal or none at all. If the truffle burger producer does not change his product he and his employees will end unemployed. And the cause is not that people desired higher numbers in bank account, but because they do not like such burgers.

Can anybody realy be that stupid to forget something like this?

And the quote at the start of the article also looks so stupid:

" In other words, real economies that do not use money and money labor contracts to organize production (e.g., feudalism, slave economies, South Sea Islanders discovered by Margaret Meed, etc) may possess important nonlinearities and even an uncertain future — but there is never an important involuntary unemployment problem."

Maybe because dead people are per defintion not unemployed?

Because before the wealth boost of 18th to 20th century pople with too little income simply starved or died of diseases they were suspectible to due to undernutrition.

As money is a boost to wealth itself, the reason that societies without money dont have unemployment problems could be that these societies are not wealthy enough to feed unemployed people, who are able to work. So either they find work or die, in both cases they are not unemployed.

Could be other reasons, but this alone could already explain a lot.

Are other economic branches realy that stupid?

There are two groups of people.

One group really is that stupid. These are the people that watch sports and think the 1812 overture is an exemplary piece of music.

The other group is more nefarious. These people understand economics to a degree that they know what they suggest isn’t “good” but they do it because they are in a position to use the force of government to benefit themselves at the expense of others.

or both…

that is to say they want to use the force of government to fund their 12 tone, all-nude opera.

…well it is an overture we are talking about

Not a big fan of most sports myself but I do love MMA.

When did watching sports become an indicator of stupidity?

What else are you looking for?

There are two groups of people.

One group really is that stupid. These are the people that watch sports and think the 1812 overture is an exemplary piece of music.

The other group is more nefarious. These people understand economics to a degree that they know what they suggest isn’t “good” but they do it because they are in a position to use the force of government to benefit themselves at the expense of others.

Time is a limited resource. Just because most people choose to spend thier time not studing economics doesnt make them stupid. They dedicate their time an energy to other pursuits. Friends, family, work, hobbies.

They have very little understanding of economics and know they have very little understanding of economics. They rely on and trust the media and economists to provide them with informations.

This does not make them stupid any more than they relying on engineers to build a bridge. They dont have the expertise to know how to build the bridge or why the bridge that was built collapsed.

This is why it is important for the Austrian school to gain legitamacy in the publics eyes. So be careful about looking down intellectually on others.

I dont understand the question.

What i would need to be convinced about austrian economics?

At least some countries either with anarchy or some ministate existing for some decades surpassing in wealth the rest of the world would be a good confirmation. So far the only countries close are Singapore and Hong Kong, but they have some GDP part of state of about 15-20%, which still not seems to be what austrians suggest.

From my point of view, it is not known whether even less state would still end up being good. But i would welcome my own country trying it, because it seems plausible from the arguments i know..

It’s a legitimate concern.

There is too much Robinson Crusoe in books on Austrian thinking. Everything is analyzed in isolation. So much hypothesising and what-ifs.

Even though Rothbard was an excellent historian, and had plenty of historical examples to back up what he said, he always starts off with isolated problems and giving just high theory. Hans-Hermann Hoppe is worse. And I say so with much respect for these people.

Sometimes you just want practical talk, and immediate answers to immediate situations. I am sorry, but most of us are not low-time-preference people of solely intellectual pursuits. Many of us are either professionals working long hours or students working towards such professions. There is a need for practical, tangible, and real world based Austrian books for high time preference people.

They are writing books on economics, not Tony Robins style self-help books for professional career advice.

If u dont want to delve into the more academic scriptures of Rothbard and Mises and such, dont do it lol. THeres plenty of more “practical” and down to earth austrian stuff like Schiff’s, Paul’s, Woods’s books

1896

When is allowing yourself to be misled not an indicator of stupidity?

I understand most people know nothing about economics but when you wield government force your economic ignorance no longer only concerns yourself. Being misled by an “expert” into voting poorly is no less disastrous than voting poorly from your own stupidity.

I understand most people know nothing about economics but when you wield government force your economic ignorance no longer only concerns yourself. Being misled by an “expert” into voting poorly is no less disastrous than voting poorly from your own stupidity.

Intelligent people are misled or mistaken all the time.

I never said that trusting the “experts” did not lead to disastrous results. But that doesn’t mean that poor voting based on lack of information is an indication of stupidity. Of ignorance yes, stupidity no.

If statism is an indication of stupidity then every great mind that wasn’t an anarchist existed wasn’t really a great mind. They were all stupid. But thats not true is it. They were highly intelligent people who dedicated their energies into different pursuits.

You need to help people see that there are alternatives to what is presented to them by elected officials, media, and mainstream intellectuals. That will not happen when if you dismiss them as stupid, patronize them, or challenge everything they know in one conversation.

Hello Southern – welcome to the world of anarcho-capitalism. I see you are just starting your research into these matters. Might I suggest:

http://mises.org/daily/2892

no. people are misled or mistaken all the time. intelligent people are misled or mistaken rarely.

no point. liberty and/or anarchy will never be popular.

this will also not happen if you suggest to take them off of the dole.

no. people are misled or mistaken all the time. intelligent people are misled or mistaken rarely

So you agree that intellegent people are mistaken and misled at times. If you do then the point remains that those who are mistaken or misled may not be stupid. People may just be naive or ignorant. There is a difference between that and lacking intellegence.

no point. liberty and/or anarchy will never be popular.

It was at one time. If what you say is true then whats the point of the Mises Institute?

this will also not happen if you suggest to take them off of the dole.

Most people dont see themselves on “the dole”. They have worked for years and paid taxes. They see it as getting what they have worked and paid for. And this is partially true.

Hello Southern – welcome to the world of anarcho-capitalism. I see you are just starting your research into these matters. Might I suggest:

http://mises.org/daily/2892

Thank you for the article. But I’m not sure what I have said to make it relevent. I havent advocated the conversion of the “masses”. I have said, dont write people off before you know anything about them.