Austrian Arrogance

According to Brian Doherty, Peter Boettke notes that, “Mises would say that a noneconomist might advocate socialism, but once you were an economist you wouldn’t. Then Oskar Lange came along and started trying to use an economic argument to defend socialism. It hit Mises and Hayek like a 2 x 4 to the head.”

There seems to be a similar pattern of belief in the idea that some on the forum seem to hold that advocates of Austrian economics are the only folks around with even the slightest bit of common sense, and that opponents, socialist opponents in particular, are always economically ignorant and often asininely stupid to an extent that approaches comedy. Of course, plenty of socialists share this belief about Austrians.

[i]“Austrians think that value comes from the subjective valuations of individuals in a market and has nothing to do with the amount of labor that goes into a product, so this must be the only way to effectively measure somethings social cost. It’s so obviously ridiculous that I don’t know why people still try to use it.”

"Well, I really don’t see the point in engaging in this debate, insofar as Austrian economics is not so much a serious theory as it is a matter of blind faith, an ideological justification of the market. Hayek, in fact, concedes the case when he says that ‘if we possess all the relevant information, if we can start out from a given system of preferences, and if we command complete knowledge of available means, the problem which remains is purely one of logic.’

As for the point about the alleged logical impossibility of preforming the calculations, complete nonsense, whoever said that evidently doesn’t have a very firm grasp of either logic or economics. If the task was logically impossible, as it is claimed, then the market couldn’t preform it anymore than a planned economy."[/i]

How many people here would react to these comments with angry or bitter resentment, insisting that they were riddled with inaccuracies, and then shoot back comments of the exact same nature at socialists and socialism? Can we perhaps acknowledge that reasonable people can disagree, that even those with harshly divergent economic viewpoints might not be mentally challenged or stupid and perhaps even admit that some might be economically informed in a general sense, even while retaining the opinion that their line of thought is economically flawed?

Socialists are not necessarily either stupid or evil; many sincerely believe wrong things for reasons they think are good.

What’s your point?

Many Austrian economics started out as Marxists.

I don’t know of any that took the reverse path.

I can admit whatever is true… but the evidence is pretty slim that the people you quote (who dropped such howlers) have any kind of basis to demand intellectual respect within that realm of human knowledge known as economics

There was austro-marxists.

Just an attitude of superiority that I feel is unnecessary. It’s certainly not universal, but it’s excessively prevalent. Is there agreement that it exists to some extent?

Incidentally, I went from intuitive agreement with Austrian arguments to anarchism.

You are correct, and I’ve said this forever, just because you are the smartest person in the world does not mean that you will come up with the right answer, or that just because you are stupid doesn’t mean that you will come up with the wrong answer. Indeed when anyone tells me about how great a politician is because he is “smart” I just get pissed off because I don’t care how smart he is, that does not mean he will do the right thing, smart people can be the stupidest of us all.

In short, good point and one I believe many of us overlook… Although the first quote up there wants to make me breathe fire… Just because labor plays a part in cost doesn’t mean that it is the only thing, it just means that that is a cost from which the price cannot go any lower… Labor theory of value gets me so riled up that I start pacing around my computer thinking about exactly what it would mean for reality… It would mean that I could by a metal rack or somthing for like twenty bucks, smash it around with the sledge hammer for a while, and then sell it for thirty bucks or somthing.

When?

Who specifically?

Some may. Some may not. How is it relevant what people “believe”?

Why would anyone be angry and bitter? They are riddled with inaccuracies, but its not the end of the world.

I will ask again. Who has done otherwise? Who specifically are you appealing to?

by the way, there is no evidence at all that Mises or Hayek were somehow shocked by Lange’s points. They dealt with him very well. I don’t know where Pete B gets this stuff.

Also, left rev scares the living crap out of me, its like the political version of 4chan… I mean come on! Even the set up is ominous as hell, why would anyone design a website like that?

Haha, I also have to pull my head away from many of the insane theories and ideas I stumble across regarding government intervention and socialism. This is especially so with the mainstream media. [8-|]

And yeah, I also end up pacing around, chain-smoking and rambling on to myself like a lunatic. It’s definitely not good for my health to constantly consider these things… [A]

Conza, for example. But of course it’s not limited to the forum. Let’s take the “an”-cap meetup notification. I clicked on the link, and found:

This mirrors the attitude at Anti-State.com, where it’s more often the case that people scream about the Anarchist FAQ authors being “crypto-Marxists” than address their points. It’s the attitude of shocked disbelief by Mises and Hayek that any economist could advocate socialism. It’s apparent in Rothbard’s comment that “economically, anarcho-communism is an absurdity. The anarcho-communist seeks to abolish money, prices, and employment, and proposes to conduct a modern economy purely by the automatic registry of ‘needs’ in some central data bank [openly false, incidentally]. No one who has the slightest understanding of economics can trifle with this theory for a single second.”

i suppose you have superior criteria to delineate between economists and cranks-masquerading as economists ?

Like the 1920s and the 1930s.

Perhaps that is because the points have already been addressed ad nauseam.

I nauseate when someone used “wage slavery” to attack wal-mart or nike. Seriously.

I don’t think so, at least not in the case of anarchists specifically. I can’t speak as assertively of other socialists as I’m an anarchist, but I still routinely get linked to Bryan Caplan’s The Anarcho-Statists of Spain despite the fact that it was quickly rebutted by Iain McKay, principal author of the FAQ. I get that and Rothbard’s aforementioned essay and treated like I’m exposed to Biblical prophecy instead of a rather meager literature that has been seen and addressed countless times before.

I’m not sure what point you are referring to, more importantly I don’t know what “anarchist” Spain has to do with Austrian Economics. Are you sure that isn’t a history debate?

Note:

Right off the bat I find the rebuttal quite alarming.

“Given that the population of Catalonia was nearly 3 million in 1936, a figure of 5 000 deaths hardly amounts to “large-scale” murder by any means.”

Seriously?

Quibbling over “tones” and inferences is no way to conduct a rebuttal. And the authors constant conflation of “capitalists” with anything state related also makes it look as if he’s already overstepping his intentions.

Hard to believe considering Bohm-Bawerk’s Marx and the Close of his System came out thirty years before.