Has anyone else been following the break between Fringeelements and Spawk, Cali9ula (sides mainly with Spawk), and individualautomony. It seems that the last few months they have been debating and through their talks the latter three have left market anarchy and moved to what seems like a minarchist stance (they haven’t confirmed their new position but it sounds like they want a limited state) over the free rider issue. How does anyone else feel about this. Market anarchy was just starting to get a hold on youtube and now three of the biggest defenders are jumping ship.
To be a “biggest defender” doesn’t mean that they had “right reasons” to defend it. I wasn’t into any of them anyway, so I don’t care much. Though, I subscribed to FE few months ago, but now considering unsubscribing beause of his childishness.
I am inclined to say that anyone who leaves market anarchism for minarchism was not a market anarchist in the first place.
What happened was:
FringeElements was pushing a particular form of free market defense system that Spawk disagreed with. Spawk then proceeded to drop his anti-statism altogether, citing the defense issue as the straw that broke the camel’s back. In the meantime, IndividualAutonomy has accentuated his socio-cultural preferences vis-à-vis his laissez-faire beliefs. What Caligula does, I don’t know.
Thus, what you have going on YouTube is nothing more than a branching out of a root idea. Some guys dropping out, others adding new thoughts to an existing system. I don’t see market anarchism “failing” on YT at all. How did you reach this conclusion?
Anarcho,
I highly doubt these guys are the ‘biggest defenders’ on Youtube.
Do you know stefbot? Do you know my channel? Do you follow the mises channel?
“How did you reach this conclusion?”
I’m sorry, I probably should have said, “the biggest defenders of market anarchy on Youtube that I have heard about.”
No, I have not heard of stefbot, your channel or the mises channel but i will definitly check them out.
Spawk has abandoned market anarchism for some kind of minarchism on various grounds - but this doesn’t surprise me, given that he once told me on stickcam that he has no problem with parents murdering their own children. Individualautonomy has become obcessed with the issues of immigration and race-based culture war. His favorites is now almost nothing but material from paleos, wn’s, and Rush Limbaugh. To my knowledge Cali9ula still is a market anarchist. And Fringelements is a propagandist with major psychological probems who abhors the word anarchism and changes the definitions of his terms when it is convenient to win an ideological war. Not much to be impressed by for being “big defenders”.
Be the change you want to see in the world? Man… my voice is so deep I sound like a robot on webcam.
pitch shift it
I have a face for radio.
http://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot
http://www.youtube.com/user/misesmedia
And mine is in my signature.
And also:
http://www.youtube.com/user/motorhomediaries
http://www.youtube.com/user/LibertyPen (not ancap but very libertarian)
http://www.youtube.com/user/janhelfeld (very libertarian also)
http://www.youtube.com/user/aaron0883 (a lot about education, unschooling and parenting)
“but this doesn’t surprise me, given that he once told me on stickcam that he has no problem with parents murdering their own children. Individualautonomy has become obcessed with the issues of immigration and race-based culture war. His favorites is now almost nothing but material from paleos, wn’s, and Rush Limbaugh.”
Dang, well talk about Rothbard’s law…
FE had a chance to play white hat hacker & instead resorted to childish behavior. It sucks as less people will take him seriously, even people who have agreed with him.
I will admit to liking FE in the past (mainly the blog on tumblr), and I think Spawk is usually on the level (I enjoyed his vids on Nihilism, and while he was a Market Anarchist, those as well).
Cali9ula / Neon-Solid is probably the most consistient of the three (and the funniest), although I do look forward to see what Spawk’s reasonings are in his own words for his change of mind (even if I will disagree with them, for the most part).
The FE vs. BP thing will always be stupid, as it’s based on emotional spats between youtube ego’s, & I’m amazed more people haven’t posted videos condemning the entire thing as an intellectual setback for the few good people on youtube making these type of videos.
They also both ended up making hysterically self-parodying posts on the situation, unaware of how useless their drama is in the grand scheme of things, imo.
IMO, the only thing that can be salvaged from this is the age old internet axiom: “Internet: Serious Buisness”.
I just hope BP had some backups of his videos on hand; even if I disagree with a lot of stuff, it’s still a major facepalm to have so much work lost like that. I myself just got finished rummaging through my own storage devices after a couple of shoddy Seagate drives crapped out on me, so the incident is not without my sympathy :\
Minarchists could say the same to minarchists who leave for market anarchism.
People change, I guess. I’m still not entirley clear on what his reasons are though, which would help either respect or disrespect his choice (i.e. if it was a logical or emotional choice).
To my knowledge, Cal9ula did not leave market anarchism, nor anarchism at all.
As for Spawk, depending on how or why he arrived at minarchism & switched, I still think his arguments could serve as a useful foil towards market anarchism (if they aren’t emotionally motivated, albiet).
Many people who subscribed to Rand, Mises, Paul & Nozick eventually softened up to market anarchism & some even make the leap.
As for the greater impact on market-anarchism on youtube, this probably wouldn’t hurt nor help it.
The main outrage from this incident is from people already associated with those involved or who already subscribed to related ideologies.
I mean if I heard about this and didn’t know anything about or wasn’t an anarchist, I really don’t think I would give two cents about such futile drama.
I liken it to that Oliver Wendell Holmes quote
“Man’s mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
Clearly market anarchism is more radical, and at this time, much more on the margin than minarchism. So to go to the margin, then retreat closer to the center, means one never was established on the margin. It’s like seeing an alien and then trying to unremember it.
How any anarchist could get to anarchism without understanding the free rider issue, and/or having the framework to deal with it, when it came up, seems impossible. I don’t think that’s an anarchist. I think that is these guys on YouTube who adopt different views for a virtual environment. They don’t have to try to live it. A pro-war, pro-fascism nationalist could call himself a market anarchist on YouTube, argue the talking points for 6 months, then turn around and adopt radical socialism as his new social preference.
Maybe I am showing my age, but just because it is on TV, don’t make it true.
Perhaps, but the same quote could apply to any percieved newer information that one may decide contradicts earlier information, especially if they read different arguments. The mind becomes stretched like a rubber band & snaps back at some point, at least until the mind stops acting like a rubberband.
Er, yea, this late night metaphor still works, I think.
Anyways, I think Spawk’s choice is more motivated by his current relationship with Faulk / FringeElements than anything else, for now, but I’ll know for sure whenever he gets around to elaborating on his move in future videos.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he went back down the rabbit hole again within the next year or so (I remember going back and forth between red and blue pills before finally making the leap myself after aquiring enough data to base the intellectual change on, so for others it might just take a longer amount of time for this to occur, especially if they don’t spend hours a day thinking about it amid work, family obligations, etc.)
As for TV, I agree, just because it’s there, don’t make it true. Although, perhaps I am also aging more rapidly since the semester started :\
@ Nielsio,
Thank you very much for the links, i’ll be sure to check them out.
“Has anyone else been following the break between”
Nope… besides BP (because he posts here) I have no idea who these people are, and by the sounds of things… I’ll be happy to never find out.