General Preaching.

I haven’t preached at you all in a while, so here’s an attempt to actually make a few serious points. My hope here is genuinely to improve the level of discussion.

First, props to Lilburne and the moderating team for increasing the quality of discussion over the past few months. Don’t get me wrong, I still take issues with a lot of the tone and quality of discussion that goes in, but it’s moving in the right direction. And what problems I have can’t really be attributed to the moderating staff, who with few exceptions, tend to be impartial, hands off and fair. The tone and composition of the forum seems to have changed quite a bit, I generally don’t see many people here who post regularly and have been around longer than I have: Juan, BP, LS, Niccolo, Len Budney, Stranger, Donny with an A, BAWAA, Jon Irenicus and a few others who slip my mind all seem to have moved on to one extent or another. And thankfully, there no longer seems to be a single predominant issue that creeps into every thread and seems as a means to dichotomize the forum. When I first joined it was agorism vs. political means which drifted slowly onto the who left vs. right libertarianism thing (did that last too long or what) and then onto the whole moral subjectivism vs.objective morality feud.

Second, and this will come off as very preachy, a while ago there was a topic about how one should behave in a debate. I believe Jonathan defended the position that we should act as gracefully as possible in a debate on the grounds that any other way of debating is likely to make your opponent unreceptive. Well, I think he was right but for the wrong reasons. Like it or not, you are definitely wrong on a few issues and you’re probably wrong on quite a few issues. The real reason to be open minded in debate is simply that there is no other way you will learn unless you assume that the person you are arguing with is at least as sincere, intelligent and well informed as you are (unless they’re quite obviously not). If you assume anything else going into a discussion you’re essentially saying that you’ve got nothing to learn from them, and invariably we see these discussions turning into bickering matches. Some here will no doubt consider this as just evidence of my spinelessness but I was once a self proclaimed “hardcore” Rothbardian-Hoppean, I considered myself pretty steadfast in my beliefs too. Pretty soon I found arguments against my beliefs that were very convincing, or at least to me. My thinking has consequently changed, as far as I’m concerned, for the better. I’m not saying that no reasonable person can listen to critiques of Rothbardianism and still remain that, I’m suggesting that if you block yourself from criticism your going to find it much harder to present convincing arguments for your case.

Once again, without trying to be arrogant, I think we need to recognise that some members here are more advanced in their study of economics than others are. Don’t get me wrong, I understand that none of us regular posters are really above an undergraduate level but there are still varying degrees of expertise amongst posters. Everybody would do well to recognise this, and those that have a less comprehensive grasp of their subject would do well to listen to those with a better understanding of it, even if they still disagree. I may have a fair few disagreements with Mises or even Rothbard, but if they were in front of me I’d shut the hell up and listen, only speaking to ask questions.

Third, once again, this will sound somewhat preachy. But, I don’t have much social capital here anyway, so I might as well go on. Generally if you’re saying something that’s interesting and original, it’s been said before somewhere. This needn’t always be the case, with a forum like this it’s more than possible to give anecdotes that relate to your specific “knowledge of time and place” but generally there will be some literature pertaining to the subject. I’m not saying you have to know enough to produce a PhD dissertation on the subject. But some knowledge of the literature would go a long way in reducing a lot of the repetition and misunderstandings. Fortunately a lot of this literature can be found for free on the internet or bought off Amazon for dirt cheap prices. If you’re unaware of where to find this literature, I daresay there are any number of posters who know where and will be willing to point you in the right direction, I know I’m always willing to provide suggestions.

Finally (for now at least), use the message feature more often. Too often topics get dragged down with personal baggage or useless bickering. People are often a lot more receptive in private messages, both parties have less of an interesting in “impressing the crowd” and will therefore be more inclined to go out on a limb more and be less inclined to try and score points in front of other posters. A lot of my most productive discussions here have been through private messages and I see no reason why the opposite would be true for other posters. On a personal note, if you ever feel I’ve ignored an important point it’s generally because I found better uses for my time and I thought the discussion was going nowhere, send me a link through private messages and I’ll get right back to replying when I have the time.

Yours sincerely, some troll.

Certain users could go a looong way if they toned down their arrogance.

No offense, but this post seems to have more to do with another string of assertions than anything of real value. While I respect the overall message — that it’s OK to be wrong, and that one should keep an open mind — the way you state it makes it seem as if what you really intend to say is completely different. Some key passages,

Like it or not, you are definitely wrong on a few issues and you’re probably wrong on quite a few issues.

This is a common theme you’ve been re-stating in your latest posts. But, it’s an assertion you have yet to back up with any convincing arguments. For the most part, you’ve posted your thesis statement and then when attacked you either try to belittle the opponent by suggesting a lack of education or you simply don’t respond with anything meaningful (for example, in the Callahan thread you responded by simply posting another, separate argument, completely unable to defend the first position).

It’s completely possible that some of us, or all of us, are wrong on certain points, but to make this fact you will have to do more than just say it so.

Also, I’d like to note that saying “you are definately wrong” is not what I meant when I suggested people on this forum should be less aggressive about defending their arguments. Admittedly, this is something we all do often (myself included; for example, I have a tendency to write “Krugman is wrong” in a lot of my articles, and it’s something I’ve been trying to edit out when I catch it in more recent writings), but for someone trying to argue the idea that we should all respect each other this is hardly an effective way of making that point.

Once again, without trying to be arrogant, I think we need to recognise that some members here are more advanced in their study of economics than others are.

Honestly, I think most community members do realize this. But, if someone has a genuine disagreement I don’t see why that member would need to “shut up and ask questions”. Spirited debate is completely healthy, or do you believe it wrong to disagree with people you consider intellectually mightier than you? Given that Krugman has a PhD, should we all shut up and listen to him, and then ask questions? I’m not so sure this is totally necessary.

Generally if you’re saying something that’s interesting and original, it’s been said before somewhere.

What does this even mean?

While you claim otherwise, I think that this has more to do with your arrogance than with anything else. This are your three main points: “You are all wrong, and I’m right”, “I am more well educated than you are, so shut up and only ask questions”, and “what you’re about to say is unoriginal, so don’t bother saying it.”

Great speech. [/sarcasm]

“I generally don’t see many people here who post regularly and have been around longer than I have: Juan, BP, LS, Niccolo, Len Budney, Stranger, Donny with an A, BAWAA, Jon Irenicus and a few others who slip my mind all seem to have moved on to one extent or another.”

Juan was banned.

Bawaa is banned. He was given no reason from anyone as far as I know. Nor has any reason been given publicly, and I made mention of it awhile ago.

As far as I can tell, others have moved on and mostly with good reason.

BAAWA was banned for trolling Liberty Student (although, it should be stressed, not BY Liberty Student). In spite of Liberty Student studiously ignoring BAAWA’s taunts, BAAWA persisted in hectoring LS for 5 days, trying to provoke a confrontation.

Ahh yes, history is written by the victors. I don’t know what else I should have expected.
I take it you banned him? Would that be correct? What are friends for, right?

I also take it the individual in question wasn’t notified. Correct? Nor other mods, since I asked around and I got a “no idea” response from more than one person.

Ahh yes, history is written by the victors. I don’t know what else I should have expected.

I don’t want to be insulting, but I feel that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. The thread in which KoB heckled LS was not deleted, and can be found through a search. KoB did not only troll and insult LS, he also belittled a number of other forum community members.

I did not.

What exactly are you implying, Conza?

If one says something original, by definition it has NOT been said somewhere before.

You said much the same thing, but without the internal contradiction, about a week ago:

Later on you said:

Mises would NOT have agreed with your “your idea is probably stupid” post.

A crucial part of learning economics is expressing your current level of understanding, however imperfect it may be, and hearing feedback. And as Mises wrote:

"Economics must not be… left to esoteric circles. It is the philosophy of human life and action and concerns everybody and everything. It is the pith of civilization and of man’s human existence. (…)

There is no means by which anyone can evade his personal responsibility. Whoever neglects to examine to the best of his abilities all the problems involved voluntarily surrenders his birthright to a self-appointed elite of supermen. In such vital matters blind reliance upon “experts” and uncritical acceptance of popular catchwords and prejudices is tantamount to the abandonment of self-determination and to yielding to other people’s domination. As conditions are today, nothing can be more important to every intelligent man than economics. His own fate and that of his progeny is at stake.

Very few are capable of contributing any consequential idea to the body of economic thought. But all reasonable men are called upon to familiarize themselves with the teachings of economics. This is, in our age, the primary civic duty.

Whether we like it or not, it is a fact that economics cannot remain an esoteric branch of knowledge accessible only to small groups of scholars and specialists. Economics deals with society’s fundamental problems; it concerns everyone and belongs to all. It is the main and proper study of every citizen."

Now, before an autodidact dares to post something here, are they to scour economic journals, as you demand, to see if the same thing has been said before? Most people who are learning economics wouldn’t know exactly what keywords to enter to find such a thing. So, it only makes sense for them to go ahead and put forth their idea, and hopefully someone who already has read a treatise chapter or journal article addressing the topic, and who is more charitable and less reproachful than you have been, will, instead of rapping their knuckles for making such an impertinent assertion, kindly correct them with regard to any errors or omissions they’ve made. Then the learner will have learned something in an efficient, targeted, and personalized manner, and the teacher will have had practice formulating and expressing what he knows. Moreover, a large number of third parties will benefit from having such a teachable moment documented on the internet.

I’m glad you think I’ve done a good job administering these forums, but that won’t stop me from telling you that I’ve had just about enough of you telling lay-people to stop expressing their thoughts about economics here, however imperfectly conceived those thoughts may be. This particular preaching project of yours is diametrically opposed to the pedagogical philosophy of Ludwig von Mises, and is antithetical to the pedagogical mission of this organization.

I’m glad you think I’ve done a good job administering these forums, but that won’t stop me from telling you that I’ve had just about enough of you telling lay-people to stop expressing their thoughts about economics here, however imperfectly conceived those thoughts may be. This particular preaching project of yours is diametrically opposed to the pedagogical philosophy of Ludwig von Mises, and is antithetical to the pedagogical mission of this organization.

I was being facetious by referring to this as preaching, I never meant to belittle anybody. I’ve no pretensions about what this forum is, a place for interested students and layman to come together to discuss a common interest, economics, or more particularly, Austrian economics. I posted this topic in an attempt to make debates more productive, not to signal forum dominance or anything like you ans Jonathan seem to be assuming.

I am by no means referring to the person who is just starting studying economics and goes to post a topic asking about an elementary question, provided they’re willing to listen. What I have a problem with is the “students” of economics who, with two months of studying under their belt, go argue with experts like George Selgin and either keep challenging him with elementary mistakes or aren’t picking up on things that they’d learn in an introduction to banking course.

I don’t think my point is disagreeable, in communities such as this knowledge has increasing returns to scale. A lot of useless bickering could be avoided, and topics generally enhanced if people were willing to do the reading on a certain subject. I’m not proclaiming that I’m an expert, nor that anybody else should be, it was just a little advice on how to increase the the productivity of exchange on these forums.

By the way, if you think Mises would sit down and be lectured to in the way that Selgin does, you’d be wrong. This has nothing to do with the pedagogical mission of the LvMI, I’m well aware of what the LvMI’s pedagogical mission is and I don’t share it. But this is nothing more than a topic on how to increase forum productivity, and that means me taking some of the advice above more often as well.

This is a common theme you’ve been re-stating in your latest posts. But, it’s an assertion you have yet to back up with any convincing arguments. For the most part, you’ve posted your thesis statement and then when attacked you either try to belittle the opponent by suggesting a lack of education or you simply don’t respond with anything meaningful (for example, in the Callahan thread you responded by simply posting another, separate argument, completely unable to defend the first position).

It’s completely possible that some of us, or all of us, are wrong on certain points, but to make this fact you will have to do more than just say it so.

Also, I’d like to note that saying “you are definately wrong” is not what I meant when I suggested people on this forum should be less aggressive about defending their arguments. Admittedly, this is something we all do often (myself included; for example, I have a tendency to write “Krugman is wrong” in a lot of my articles, and it’s something I’ve been trying to edit out when I catch it in more recent writings), but for someone trying to argue the idea that we should all respect each other this is hardly an effective way of making that point.

Jonathon, I think you got the wrong impression of my second point, I never meant to say “you [the average forum poster] are wrong and I’m right”. What I did mean was that we should always try to be civil in debates, and I think that the primary reason is simply that if we’re have a discussion with somebody who is sincere, intelligent and well informed there’s always the possibility of learning something. This needn’t be much, and it may simply be that you learn certain arguments of yours are weaker than you first thought or that you would be more persuasive if you had more empirical evidence to support your case. Ultimately, however, if you go into every discussion under the impression that those who disagree with you are insincere, stupid or ignorant topics will quickly descend into what we all too often see, and what you moderators correctly dislike.

Honestly, I think most community members do realize this. But, if someone has a genuine disagreement I don’t see why that member would need to “shut up and ask questions”. Spirited debate is completely healthy, or do you believe it wrong to disagree with people you consider intellectually mightier than you? Given that Krugman has a PhD, should we all shut up and listen to him, and then ask questions? I’m not so sure this is totally necessary.

Krugman is a special case, most economists laugh at Krugman precisely because he is such an ideologue. Nonetheless, if he were here in front of me right now, I might well ask him about international trade, all the more so since I’ve heard Russ Roberts and David Henderson praise his work. But for almost any other prominent intellectual, I’d definitely see the opportunity as a learning experience and use it as such. This doesn’t mean uncritically accepting what they have to say, but it does mean recognising their comparative advantage in economics.

But once again, you’re largely misunderstanding my post. I’m not saying that people can’t disagree with those that have a more comprehensive understanding of a subject. I’m saying that they should be humble when they do so and recognise that they can learn from those who do more. Let me give you an extreme example of this not happening, when George Selgin gets challenged about the basic concepts of banking, which I believe he teaches a course on, by people who have never read a textbook or taken a course on the subject, something is wrong. All the more so when they people make themselves look like arrogant dicks in the process.

By the way, I try to follow this myself. When Jon Irenicus or Donny with an A were posting regularly here, I did recognise their authority on the subject. That doesn’t mean I disagreed with them, it meant that when I thought one of them was wrong I’d ask if they were aware on the literature on the subject, think more deeply on it and just ask them patiently to explain to me what they thought I was doing wrong. Now, I’ve had people who disagree with me send me private messages doing just this, and I’d hope that they’d testify in favour of me being patient and trying to go over it with them.

While you claim otherwise, I think that this has more to do with your arrogance than with anything else. This are your three main points: “You are all wrong, and I’m right”, “I am more well educated than you are, so shut up and only ask questions”, and "what you’re about to say is unoriginal, so don’t bother saying it.

If you’re coming away from my post thinking this then I suppose I’m not getting my point across well. I hope you’re patient enough to hear me out and try and understand that this isn’t an attempt to stroke my own ego. I really was making a sincere effort to give advice that I wish I’d followed more often. I think that 12 months ago when I agreed with the orthodoxy of the LvMI, I was horribly wrong and that if I’d been more receptive to other people’s sincere criticisms I’d have come to see this sooner.

Besides, trust me, I’ve no need to stroke my own ego, and if I did, I wouldn’t do it on the LvMI forums.

Whatever happened to Stranger?

By the way, as a general note, if you’re uncomfortable with me using my own experiences on the forum as an example, I can offer some others. Without trying to name any particular offenders, I’ll note that forum members who have been entirely sincere, but out of whack with the orthodoxy of the forum, have often been treated like crap. I may disagree with jbloom, but he’s always made earnest attempts to get his point across, these attempts have in no way been reciprocated.

his only point is that if you have guns you can do things with them. He also supports the use of violence against innocent people to get what he wants. He ignores economic rationalism and prudential political philosophy. I don’t know what you want us to do.

The fact of the matter is that if you met jbloom in any other setting besides this forum, you would probably consider him an ally in the fight against Big Government, even though you have some disagreements with him. When you do disagree with him, you (and everyone else on this forum) would do better to fight ideas with ideas. Ad hominems are unnecessary.

“but I feel that you really don’t know what you’re talking about”

What do you expect when you ask questions and get nothing in response. Granted I didn’t ask you (not that would have changed anything), or every mod - but after a few I gathered no-one knew.

That’s great, your feelings are subjective. I don’t want to be insulting, but I don’t believe you know what you’re talking about. Since in fact - you’ve offered nothing new to this conversation, that I haven’t already heard.

“The thread in which KoB heckled LS was not deleted, and can be found through a search.”

= Red herring. Regardless, all I see is dodging in that thread, a user continuing to post and ignoring another’s responses. So? Maybe the forums need an ignore feature, which is something that was suggested ages ago.

What I specifically remember is a certain mod trying to use veiled threats because he didn’t like being told that he was wrong.

“he also belittled a number of other forum community members.”

He did? Prove it. All I saw was steadfastness in his convinctions in the face of fallacies. Anyway - there haven’t been other members who’ve belitteled others? There is a whole damn thread dedicated to that atm… what a weak attempt at a justification.

“I did not.”

Who did then?

It really isn’t any of your business. We can’t have moderators being crucified by regular posters. The mod/admin community has its own way of dealing with out of line mods. (Note that I’m not saying that whoever banned baawa was out of line.)

Some here will no doubt consider this as just evidence of my spinelessness but I was once a self proclaimed “hardcore” Rothbardian-Hoppean, I considered myself pretty steadfast in my beliefs too.

I don’t remember this, and when I have pressed you to read things by Hoppe, you’ve claimed you don’t have time to address it yet you have time to preach now. I wonder what you think this will accomplish.

I’m not saying you have to know enough to produce a PhD dissertation on the subject. But some knowledge of the literature would go a long way in reducing a lot of the repetition and misunderstandings. Fortunately a lot of this literature can be found for free on the internet or bought off Amazon for dirt cheap prices.

I am also in doubt that you even read D:TGtF because of how often you misrepresent his work. I was so skeptical that you ever even read the book you were “debating” about that I asked you to write a certain word from a certain page, and you couldn’t do it. Note to mods: blatant lies about senior members of LvMI (or something to that effect) are against the forum rules. Since its allowed let this crap go on, I occasionally get pissed and call people morons. I reported the last one but it is still sitting there. When I’ve made suggestions on how to improve the forums, they go ignored, and some wonder why I have an “uncivil tone”.

These are the two main problems I see with Giles’ posts over and over again:

  • appeals to authority
  • baseless assertions

Some here will no doubt consider this as just evidence of my spinelessness but I was once a self proclaimed “hardcore” Rothbardian-Hoppean, I considered myself pretty steadfast in my beliefs too. Pretty soon I found arguments against my beliefs that were very convincing, or at least to me. My thinking has consequently changed, as far as I’m concerned, for the better. I’m not saying that no reasonable person can listen to critiques of Rothbardianism and still remain that, I’m suggesting that if you block yourself from criticism your going to find it much harder to present convincing arguments for your case.

Considering that the arguments you offer generally don’t go beyond the above two points. I wonder what convinced you.


I totally agree but we will still have someone reacting to the idiocy of a handful of people who should just be banned.


Anyhow in the great words of our esteemed moderator I. Ryan:

Dumb thread.

Personally I value thinking above reading. There is nothing wrong with preempting books by drawing conclusions for yourself and expressing them in your own words.

I am not certain that this is true. You certainly called yourself a Hoppean, but I always felt you may have been misinterpreting him. To me you seemed hung up aspects of his thinking that could be with some tinkering (mis)constructed as not being fully anarchist.

Jbloom’s presence is pointless. He is a drone. It is pointless to try to get a point across to someone who is one hundred percent unteacheable. We should be given free reign to flame him until he leaves, tail between legs.

ERO,

Just for the record Hayekianxyz has read DTGF at least once. He may now misrepresent his position but it is factual false he hasn’t done the reading. He can seem to be somewhat avasive in debate but as he said PM is better for a more cordial one on one debate.