Just a small, but important point: Usually there is another word that comes after “hunter gather” and that word is “societies”. My point is that hunter gathers (plural) lived within the context of tribes and even had villages. This is because some division of labor is essential and at least diversifies and therefore mitigates the risk of personal health or production failure, if not larger geographic risks.
Just a small, but important point: Usually there is another word that comes after “hunter gather” and that word is “societies”. My point is that hunter gathers (plural) lived within the context of tribes and even had villages. This is because some division of labor is essential and at least diversifies and therefore mitigates the risk of personal health or production failure, if not larger geographic risks.
No. If we can all be self-sufficient in providing for ourselves indiviually then we can live just fine by ourselves. And if we do need help we can use gold and silver to buy what we need (always works).
- No. If we can all be self-sufficient in providing for ourselves indiviually then we can live just fine by ourselves. And if we do need help we can use gold and silver to buy what we need (always works).
Are you proposing a society where it’s just a bunch of individuals scavanging and hunting in the woods with no division of labor? Who’s going to be producing this stuff you’ll buy with gold that “always works”. Gold does not, in fact, always work, by the way. People have to accept it as a money.
No. If we can all be self-sufficient in providing for ourselves indiviually then we can live just fine by ourselves. And if we do need help we can use gold and silver to buy what we need (always works).
But, you just said yourself that you might need something only someone else can provide. That’s the purpose of the division of labor! The division of labor exists for a reason, and that’s to increase productivity.
If you want to go wander in the wilderness without a clue about what you’re doing go ahead. If you want a sack of gold and silver to carry around go ahead with that also. On a whole I don’t see the point of all this as if we’ll all be living like it’s Mad Max after this “collapse”. Also, you might also want to try to find some parts of the wilderness that aren’t already owned privately by someone. Chances are, if the conditions are as bad as you envision, trespassers will be shot on sight. Value is subjective, so just because you have gold doesn’t mean it will be accepted. What good is a gold coin to someone who has everything they need? Those shop keepers will be far more prepared than you. I’m also sure the productive individuals of society will take full advantage of the division of labor and help each other out. Shop keepers will remain shop keepers just like the mechanics will remain mechanics, and the carpenters will remain carpenters. All in all, your reason for living in the wilderness is a bit…stupid. There are a lot of people who will live more secluded in the wilderness, because that’s how they live, and want to live, not as some scapegoat from problems. I respect and admire those people, not someone thinking this will solve their problems from some apocalyptic collapse.
Have you even been camping or hunting before?
On a whole I don’t see the point of all this as if we’ll all be living like it’s Mad Max after this “collapse”. Also, you might also want to try to find some parts of the wilderness that aren’t already owned privately by someone. Chances are, if the conditions are as bad as you envision, trespassers will be shot on sight
The state owns 99% of the wilderness. When the state collapses we’ll just go to the parts of the woods that were once state-owned.
Chances are, if the conditions are as bad as you envision, trespassers will be shot on sight. Value is subjective, so just because you have gold doesn’t mean it will be accepted. What good is a gold coin to someone who has everything they need? Those shop keepers will be far more prepared than you.
Gold ALWAYS has value. ALWAYS. That’s why we support gold as money. In a civ collapse gold will be worth even more because there will be a huge demand for it as a universal means of exchange.
ll in all, your reason for living in the wilderness is a bit…stupid. There are a lot of people who will live more secluded in the wilderness, because that’s how they live, and want to live, not as some scapegoat from problems. I respect and admire those people, not someone thinking this will solve their problems from some apocalyptic collapse.
Have you even been camping or hunting before?
Yes I’ve been camping plenty of times. I know how to survive in the wilderness. It’s not hard once you know primitive survival techniques like how to hunt and gather your food supply.
Gold ALWAYS has value. ALWAYS. That’s why we support gold as money. In a civ collapse gold will be worth even more because there will be a huge demand for it as a universal means of exchange.
You are 100% out of line with the market mindest and market mentality, we can discuss nothing usefull with you. The market process is a cosmopolitan bourgoise appraisment of society. You have ignored fundamental concepts like the STV and the division of labor.
Check into anarcho-primitivism or something if you wish to match your aesthetics with some political group as there is no way a political group that endorses the market process is compatible with your line of thinking.
Also this is not a good place to ask about farming or anything - as none of us here are experts in it, and if we are we have no way of showing credentials. If you want to be productive in that field I reccomend going to an A&M school or something. That could actually be a good decision, as it sounds like a field of work you are interested in…it is also probably much less dangerous and much more profitable
The state owns 99% of the wilderness. When the state collapses we’ll just go to the parts of the woods that were once state-owned.
Is this fact? Also, when the state collapses, how do you know that now unowned land wouldn’t be homesteaded, and becoming someone’s property?
Gold ALWAYS has value. ALWAYS. That’s why we support gold as money. In a civ collapse gold will be worth even more because there will be a huge demand for it as a universal means of exchange.
This can easily be disproved by someone simply not accepting your gold as money.
Yes I’ve been camping plenty of times. I know how to survive in the wilderness. It’s not hard once you know primitive survival techniques like how to hunt and gather your food supply.
Then why are you here talking about it? You’re on an economics forum asking questions about how to survive in the wild with some far fetched reason as to why. Better question, have you ever hunted, killed, and collected and cleaned your food source? Can you differentiate between the dozens upon dozens of plants in the forests and to know what’s edible? When surviving in the wilderness do you actually survive in the wilderness, or simply enjoy nature with the luxory of modern day equipment? There are those who regularly do back country camping and make it look like a field trip. I have a feeling you’re far from one of them.
@ Freedom4Me73986
If you’re interested in survivalist stuff you should look through the archives of of LewRockwell Column. There are a number of interesting articles backing your predictions of collapse. IMO the U.S. will experience some social breakdown, increases in crime, a breakdown of the division of labour and soaring prices of basic necessities. Learing how to grow some of your own food, stockpiling non-perishables, buying a few guns, and some ammunition are probably good ideas. Also, owning a second property away from major cities is better than living in one. And, its not hard to grow your own vegetables in your backyard. I’ve known people who have done this. Also, deer hunting is not difficult. I have never done it myself. But I know a few people who have, and it can cut back on your grocery bills. I don’t know anybody who lives completely off the land. Its simply not worth it. But you can live partially off the land to cut down on your bills. It really only makes sense to do in a rural area however.
I also think owning a lttle gold, and maybe some silver too is a good idea.
Like you, I don’t agree with the OP that playing Batman in the Boondocks is feasable. I wasn’t clear about it but in my view a year or two of food storage will get anyone through most of the chaos of a collapse. After that, I think that society will be back on its feet for the most part. I think it took Zimbabwe a year for their stores to go from completely empty to full again. As James Rawles states, “Given the historic short life expectancy of hunter-gatherers, I’ve opted for a well-defended Deep Larder approach. Your mileage may vary.”
It wouldn’t take UFO’s. Anything that could knock out the power-grid would do it. Setting off a nuke high in the stratosphere would create a massive EMP that would fry just about all of the country’s electric systems, including disabling modern vehicles. Or, merely a repeat of the solar storm of 1859 would do it:
In September 1859, the sun unleashed one of the most powerful storms in recorded history. The solar eruption induced electrical currents that set telegraph offices on fire and sparked dramatic displays of northern lights over Cuba and Hawaii.
Scientists and officials from a range of organizations gathered in Washington, D.C., yesterday (June 21) to ask a simple but frightening question: What if it happens again?
“A similar storm today might knock us for a loop,” Lika Guhathakurta, a solar physicist at NASA headquarters, said. "Modern society depends on high-tech systems such as smart power grids, GPS and satellite communications — all of which are vulnerable to solar storms.
While the 1859 storm halted telegraph messages and puzzled a lot of skywatchers in the tropics, an eruption of that magnitude today would be much more serious, researchers said.
Worldwide blackouts could last for months as engineers struggled to repair damaged transformers, for example. Planes and ships couldn’t trust GPS units for navigation, and banking networks might go offline, seriously disrupting global commerce.
According to a 2008 report from the National Academy of Sciences, a massive solar storm could have the economic impact of 20 Hurricane Katrinas. That hurricane caused an estimated $80 billion of damage."
Let me add what James Rawles writes about the chilling consequences of the grid going down. The lynchpin is the grid. Without functioning power grids, modern industrial societies will collapse within weeks. In the past, the US had a largely agrarian and self-sufficient society. Now, just 1% of the population operating farms and ranches feeds the other 99%. And remember that the average idiot American who believes the government will always protect them in emergencies doesn’t have more than a week or two worth of food in their house:
The Golden Horde
Because of the urbanization of the U.S. population, if the entire eastern or western power grid goes down for more than a week, the cities will rapidly become unlivable. I foresee that there will be an almost unstoppable chain of events: Power → water → food distribution → law and order → arson fires → full scale looting
As the comfort level in the cities rapidly drops to nil, there will be a massive involuntary outpouring from the big cities and suburbs into the hinterboonies. This is the phenomenon that my late father, Donald Robert Rawles–a career physics research administrator at Lawrence Livermore Laboratories–half-jokingly called “The Golden Horde.” He was of course referring to the Mongol Horde of the 13th Century, but in a modern context. (The Mongol rulers were chosen from the ‘Golden Family’ of Temujin. Hence the term “The Golden Horde.”) I can remember as a child, my father pointing to the hills at the west end of the Livermore Valley, where we then lived. He opined: “If The Bomb ever drops, we’ll see a Golden Horde come swarming over those hills [from Oakland and beyond] of the like that the world has never seen. And they’ll be very unpleasant, believe you me!”
The Thin Veneer
In my lectures on survival topics I often mention that there is just a thin veneer of civilization on our society. What is underneath is not pretty, and it does take much to peel away that veneer. You take your average urbanite or suburbanite and get him excessively cold, wet, tired, hungry and/or thirsty and take away his television, beer, drugs, and other pacifiers, and you will soon see the savage within. It is like peeling the skin of an onion—remove a couple of layers and it gets very smelly. As a Christian, I attribute this to man’s inherently sinful nature.
Here is a mental exercise: Put yourself in the mind set of Mr. Joe Sixpack, Suburbanite. (Visualize him in or near a big city near where you live.) He is unprepared. He has less than one week’s food on hand, he has a 12 gauge pump action shotgun that he hasn’t fired in years, and just half a tank of gas in his minivan and maybe a gallon or two in a can that he keeps on hand for his lawn mower. Then the end of the world as we know it hits. The power grid is down, his job is history, the toilet doesn’t flush, and water no longer magically comes cascading from the tap. There are riots beginning in his city. The local service stations have run out of gas. The banks have closed. Now he is suddenly desperate. Where will he go? What will he do?
Odds are, Joe will think: “I’ve gotta go find a vacation cabin somewhere, up in the mountains, where some rich dude only goes a few weeks out of each year.” So vacation destinations like Lake Tahoe, Lake Arrowhead, and Squaw Valley, California; Prescott and Sedona, Arizona; Hot Springs, Arkansas; Vail and Steamboat Springs, Colorado; and the other various rural ski, spa, Great Lakes, and coastal resort areas will get swarmed. Or, he will think: “I’ve got to go to where they grow food.” So places like the Imperial Valley, the Willamette Valley, and the Red River Valley will similarly get overrun. There will be so many desperate Joe Sixpacks arriving all at once that these areas will degenerate into free-fire zones. It will be an intensely ugly situation and will not be safe for anyone. In some places the locals may be so vastly outnumbered that they won’t survive. But some of the Joe Sixpacks will survive, and then the more ruthless among them will begin to fight amongst themselves for the few remaining resources. They will form ad hoc gangs of perhaps 6 to 30 people.
Once the Golden Horde has been thinned (and honed to ferocity) and they’ve cleaned out an area, the thugs at the pinnacle of ruthlessness will comprise the most formidable rover packs imaginable. They will move on to an adjoining region, and then another. But the inverse sqaure law will work in your favor: Imagine that you take a jar of marbles turn it upside down on a wooden floor and then lift the jar suddenly upward. The marbles will spread out semi-randomly. But the farther from the mouth of the jar, the lighter the density of marbles. Hence, the rover packs will attenuate themselves into a huge rural expanse that is peopled with well-armed country folks. By the time the looters work their way out 150 miles from the big cities, they will be thinned out considerably.
The rover pack is your primary threat in a total collapse, no matter how remote your retreat. Here are your potential adversaries: A squad to company size force (12 to 60 individuals), highly mobile, moderately well armed with a motley assortment of weapons and vehicles, and imbued with absolute ruthlessness. Be prepared.
“… no one can find a safe way out for himself if society is sweeping towards destruction.”
– Ludwig von Mises
True that Mises. No survival plans will be totally safe. But some will make it through, and as one of my favorite survival quotes goes: I will do today what others will not do, so that I can do tomorrow what others cannot do.
True that Mises. No survival plans will be totally safe. But some will make it through, and as one of my favorite survival quotes goes: I will do today what others will not do, so that I can do tomorrow what others cannot do.
So what can we do? There is nothing we can do but put our individual selfs first and take up a survivalist/hunter-gatherer lifestyle. We don’t know what could happen in the future so we need to be prepared for any situation.
Here are some survivalist basics:
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Carry a gun with you all the time. Don’t forget bullets. What also comes in handy are handcuffs as defense.
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Carry all your valuables with you in a giant napsack and carry it with you all the time.
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Buy as much gold and silver as you can. After “the big collapse” a means of exchange will develop naturally and gold and silver will ALWAYS have value in any situation so you’d be much better with more gold than none.
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Learn primitive survival skills like hunting and gathering. When society collapses so will most agricultural firms and importing food from overseas will stall. Hunting and gathering makes you 100% self-sufficient for food and results in a much freer lifestyle IMO.
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Homestead as much land as you can if you can.
Here is a quick-start guide for newbies. Right now you should be stocking up on nickels before they are debased in the near future. As far as carrying around valubles, it would be better to find a secluded place and bury them, along with some emergency supplies. As far as saving gold and silver, Rawles writes:
To begin, I DO NOT consider gold and silver particularly good barter items for the depths of an economic collapse [here are good items for that]. Rather, I consider them a sort of “time machine” vehicle to preserve wealth from one side of an economic collapse to the other. (Something that almost certainly no paper currency will do.) As I pointed out in the Barter Faire chapter of my novel Patriots, even small gold coins are much too compact a form of wealth for day-to-day barter transactions. However, easily recognizable silver coins (such as pre-1965 mint date U.S. 90% silver dimes and quarters) might have some utility for barter. But in the very depth of the chasm, only truly practical items like common caliber ammunition and canning lids will be in great demand as barterables. The greatest utility for gold and silver will be in the later recovery phase, and post-recovery–again, as a time machine. Perhaps someday you’ll have the chance to trade a dozen one ounce Krugerrands or American Eagles for a ranch house on 40 acres.
To begin, I DO NOT consider gold and silver particularly good barter items for the depths of an economic collapse [here are good items for that]
I beg to differ.
http://www.mind-trek.com/reports/tl18.htm
http://faber-blog.blogspot.com/2011/05/primitive-civilizations-remaining-after.html
http://www.truthistreason.net/collapse-of-civilization-now-guaranteed
A MUST WATCH.
It would cut the fat. Plus, I think people would survive on the whole. Humanity has survived millenia as far as we know, and there’s no reason to think the majority of people would drop off.
Society, in a big way, is similar to economics. Sure, you can make a product or produce a crop, something to that affect, and live off of it, but your lifestyle would be severely limited unless you’re a true agricultural Renaissance man.
Society is similar in that we are offered a bunch of protection through housing, having weapons, being able to have our currency recognized by businesses competing for our money, etc.
Living “off the grid” is possible, but you would be severely limted. Not saying you can’t do it, but until I need to, you can have fun on your own. I enjoy my A/C, shower and shelter while being able to go out to eat if I want, go get drunk if I want, and I can mow my lawn without fearing a lion attack, etc. Lots of diversity in society. It’s not all bad.
According to a 2008 report from the National Academy of Sciences, a massive solar storm could have the economic impact of 20 Hurricane Katrinas. That hurricane caused an estimated $80 billion of damage."
Hehe, reminds me of that scene from Team America
The harsh reality is that if something really, really bad does happen you’re best to just put lipstick on so can look nice when you get fucked.
(PS, I find it a little concerting that this discussion is going on in an Austrian economics discussion forum)