In defense of Peter Schiff

I agree. I’d liken it to the trees vs. the forest. The businessman is inside the forest looking around; the economist is outside the forest looking in.

While I do agree with your points here, I don’t think that Peter Schiff is making quite the same arguments as those you’re attributing to him. For one thing, he seems to argue that the US trade deficit is being bolstered by federal-government debt and fiat-currency machinations. He bases this on the fact that US jobs have been moving out of manufacturing and engineering and into service-sector areas such as retail and government. If a trade deficit for a country actually means that country is profiting, as Frederic Bastiat argued, then ceteris paribus one would expect to see expansion of those areas of the economy that are creating the trade deficit. That doesn’t seem to be happening here. Bastiat’s predictions, however, don’t seem to necessarily apply in the case of a fiat currency.

In this light, I think his references to the US economy “not producing things” and the Chinese economy “producing things” make more sense. What he seems to mean is that, contrary to Bastiat’s expectations, the US trade deficit is not actually the result of increased wealth production. If correct, it means that, when the US federal debt finally becomes unsustainable, Americans will find themselves in a far worse economic position than they believed they were in. The Chinese, on the other hand, may not suffer as much since they apparently have more wealth-producing infrastructure.

Strictly speaking, of course, Frederic Bastiat isn’t an Austrian-School economist. However, I haven’t seen anything in Austrian Economics that would argues to the contrary of his position. It would seem, then, that Peter Schiff’s positions on the US trade deficit and the US economy vis-a-vis the Chinese economy are actually consistent with Austrian Economics.

I have interacted with the economy all of my life. I have also studied Austrian economics, and while I might not be a champion of AE, I am pretty sure there are a dozen laymen on this forum who could smoke him at AE understanding. His predictions, when you become familiar with other people who have also made predictions, are not particularly remarkable. He’s just been able to market how right he was, better. Go read Crash Proof 1.0. It was hit and miss. More hit than miss, but far from demonstrating a perfect understanding.

I don’t write rants for a living. You of course have no idea what I do. Personalizing the discussion is a weakness in debate.

I do see differences between myself and Peter Schiff. However the truth isn’t a personality battle. What do YOU know about AE, that you can apply to buttress his ideas?

I spent a lot of time following Schiff, if Esuric is off, it is not by much.

Schiff constantly implies that trade is a zero sum game, and that there are winners and losers in foreign trade. That’s not consistent at all with praxeology.

Both are bad. Adam Smith was right that the vested interest of businessmen means they are terrible for consulting on matters of economics or public policy, but Adam Smith did not consider that bureaucrats like him had their own vested interests, which was to be yes-men for the current administration to get to the best posts.

A famous Chinese philosopher from 1500 years ago once said, “It can not be healthy that learning today is done not for acquiring knowledge and wisdom, but for becoming government officials.” That’s why the very unfortunate caste system came about in India - it was declared that a man of knowledge should be materially destitute, but be supported by funding of ordinary people, under compulsion by warriors. There is no solution but to accept that every human is biased. Take what you find acceptable and leave the rest.

He is a charming guy and a superior rhetoritician.

Prateek Sanjay wrote:

Schiff made predictions of hyperinflation. Such sensational claims were completely unnecessary. What do you expect? That you can get away with saying that western nations can become like Zimbabwe and not be accountable to what you said? It shows not an interest in solving problems of today, but in getting media attention and showing gleeful desire to profit from demise. It’s akin to behaving like Mao Zedong, who said that a global nuclear war would be preferable, because it would lead to a faster spread of socialism.

Trying to understand the concept of a necessary prediction vs. an unnecessary prediction. Also, since there are differing opinions on what hyperinflation is, how can you be so sure that Schiff’s calls for future hyperinflation are sensational?

Schiff points to the way the Fed and the U.S. Government are handling the present economic crisis, by spending trillions of dollars in Government spending, and compares it to the way Zimbabwe handled their own financial crisis. Peter Schiff isn’t the only one to point to these similarities. So if debating from a very simplistic angle, which is what the television and radio shows he’s on do, then the use of simplistic cause and effect will be applied. If the US follows the same game plan as Zimbabwe did, can we expect the outcome to be any different? Obviously there’s more in play here, but these media forums do not permit the time to get that more refined detail out.

Schiff has not set a timeframe for when he predicts hyperinflation will occur. He has pointed to the trend of rising food and energy prices as an indicator that inflation is already here. You can argue the finer points on whether or not he’s technically correct. His message, however, is pretty clear and simple. With government intervention out of control, rising prices, a Fed that hasn’t been right about anything with the power to impact everything, people need to protect themselves from economic uncertainty. Schiff points to precious metals as a safer alternative to cash or other investments. He doesn’t hide the fact that it’s his business to sell what he’s suggesting others should buy.

Western nations, like the US and UK, have been the master-manipulators of currency, and have fed at the trough at the expense of the 3rd world nations. There is really nothing special about western nations that protect them from the fate of inflation or even hyperinflation. While these western nations have positioned themselves by selling the rest of the world on a flawed currency system, this offers very little protection from a global trend whether that be deflation, inflation, hyperinflation or complete collapse. Those protections could also disappear overnight once the rest of the world wakes up and says “no more.”

Summary of the history of inflation/hyperinflation:

  • Angola 1991-1995 - major hyperinflation
  • Argentina 1975-1991 - steady inflation to hyperinflation
  • Austria 1922 - inflation hit 1426%
  • Belarus 1994-2002 - steady inflation
  • Bolivia 1984-1986 - major inflation
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina 1993
  • Brazil 1986-1994
  • Bulgaria 1996 - 311% inflation
  • Chile 1971-2973+ - hyperinflation
  • China (Yuan Dynasty) - hyperinflation, and (1948-1949 or 1955) - hyperinflation
  • Free City of Danzig 1923 - hyperinflation
  • Georgia 1993-1995
  • Germany 1923 - hyperinflation
  • Greece 1944
  • Hungary 1945-1946 - hyperinflation (worst in recorded human history)
  • Israel 1971-1985 - steadily rising inflation
  • Japan 1943-1950s - high inflation
  • Krajina 1993
  • Madagascar 2004-2005
  • Mozambique 1972-1992 - inflation
  • Nicaragua 1987-1990
  • Peru 1988-1990
  • Philippines 1942-1944 - inflation driven by Japanese occupation
  • Poland 1922-1924 and 1989-1991
  • Republika Srpsk 1993
  • Romania 1990-present
  • Russian Federation: Soviet Russia 1921-1922 - 213% inflation; post-Soviet 1992-1998
  • Taiwan 1940s
  • Turkey 1990’s-2005
  • Ukraine 1993-1995
  • Confederate States of America 1861-1865
  • Yugoslavia 1988-1994
  • Zaire 1989-1996
  • Zimbabwe 1980-2009- inflation to hyperinflation to currency abandonment to foreign currencies. 2nd worst in history.

Criticism of Peter Schiff and what he’s saying is valid, and not necessarily emotionally induced. Schiff is a contrarian, which will draw much more criticism than those who go with the rest of the crowd. He is offering up sound bites in order to market his products. He does tend to go off on tangents, and even says some things that are face-palm worthy, but on the whole he’s getting people to think about more than just the official government statements on the economy and is attracting some who’ll take the time to discover such things as Austrian Economics and libertarian thought. Hopefully his hyperbole doesn’t poison the well of truth and knowledge. I think truth and knowledge will hold up just fine even if Peter Schiff gets it wrong in some parts.

You know, we don’t even need hyperinflation to have a really bad time. A prolonged time of moderate inflation can have devestating effects on an economy. I’ve been wondering about the relationship with the number and severity of inflationary periods around the world to the IMF. The IMF was created to help stabilize the global economy, but the results have been the opposite - especially in those non-western nations who don’t have the influence to control IMF policy. Decisions from the IMF require a supermajority, and the U.S. is the only nation that can stop a supermajority vote. That essentially means that the IMF could be considered an extension of the U.S. Fed (or at least that those who influence the U.S. economy via the Fed could also influence the global economy via the IMF). I’ll be interested to see what these influential parties do once the dominoes start falling. Not saying that I’ll enjoy it, however.

Mises Pieces wrote:

I really wish that a Murphy or a Block would make themselves as visible as Schiff, because then I’d be listening to their podcasts at work instead since their exposition of Austrian theory is so superior.

Yeah, but unfortunately Bob Murphy is getting to be a little too exposed

Interesting. Just out of curiosity, can you point out one or more statements that Schiff has made which, at least as far as you’re concerned, make that implication?

Both are bad for what, exactly? Can you please clarify this statement?

Also please note for the record that I was not (intentionally) imputing any value judgements in what I wrote.

I precisely said this so you wouldn’t just say “do your own research”. I did do some, and I couldn’t find it.

There’s no need to be rude and make a “let me google that for you” link. All I asked was that you supply a source for what you said since I couldn’t find it. It’s not that big of a deal.

Did you find it now? After he posted some well known links of Schiff personally preaching military socialism and fascism. This isn’t new either. I’m surprised that people here are shocked by this.

Yeah, I saw the video he posted. That’s why I asked in the first place.

This response is riddled with pure mysticism and a denial of basic and fundamental economic doctrines. For example:

  1. He makes the bizarre claim that the coordination and calculation arguments don’t deal with government central planning (??)
  2. He blatantly ignores the accumulation of malinvestments in China (empty ghost cities and super malls): http://blog.mises.org/15053/15053/
  3. He flatly denies the universal validity of Ricardo’s law of comparative costs (which stands at the very center of economic theory)
  4. He reasserts that the Chinese economy is freer than ours, without any evidence, and simply ignores all counter-evidence.
  5. He arbitrarily distinguishes between economic freedom/capitalism with freedom in general. The two are intrinsically bound.
  6. He doesn’t understand the subtle points that I’m making. I’m not saying that Peter is entirely wrong.

Refuting all of his mercantilist fallacies will require a very lengthy response which he’ll probably just ignore once again, but there is one thing that I must respond to:

**

This is another bizarre statement from Schiff which entirely ignores half of the equation. It’s an argument usually espoused by protectionists.

Simply put, the American current account deficit leads to a cash flow out of America into foreign nations, into the hands of international firms and producers, in exchange for cheap international products (helps the consumers). Those dollars aren’t trapped in foreign markets; they are reinvested back into the American economy, in the form of FDI, real-estate investment, the stock market, in the corporate bonds market, and, unfortunately, also in the government bond market. This finances private capital investment and innovation, government expenditures (unfortunately), and increases the productive capacity of the nation in general (which consists solely of individuals and entrepreneurs). In other words, it increases real wages, and makes America productive (again, the U.S. is the most productive nation in the entire world, and its manufacturing capabilities reached an all-time high in 2007–higher than any other year in U.S. history).

Peter is equating capital account surpluses with debt, which has a negative connotation amongst laymen, in an attempt to stress his point, namely that America is doomed because of its current account deficits. But all he’s saying here is that “debt is bad.” This is, of course, absurd. Debt is a vital part of any functional economy, and financial markets bridge gaps between savers and investors. Entrepreneurs usually don’t have enough savings of their own in order to engage in capital investment and “capitalize” (for lack of a better term) on untapped opportunities. They borrow capital in order to engage in production and satiate consumer desires, hoping to earn a rate of return which exceeds the interest on their borrowed capitals. Again, this eliminates certain frictions (risk, asymmetric information) and facilitates capital accumulation and innovation (which, in turn, increases the marginal productivity of labor, and therefore real wages).

The point here is that, again, there’s nothing wrong with current account deficits, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with debt. The problem arises only when there are arbitrary misallocations and imbalances caused by government interventionism, which definitely exists. Thus, Peter is not entirely wrong, but his arguments are partially factually incorrect, and/or are poorly reasoned. He occasionally engages in economic fallacies, probably because he’s not really an economist with economic training.

IMO, I’m not sure how much Peter would agree with this statement, but I think this is his logic (Or at least my opinion on the matter).

Trade deficits per se aren’t bad for an economy. Its what makes up the trade deficit which determines if the trade deficit is “bad” for the economy (By bad, I mean harmful to growth, which I guess takes a pro growth bias, buts thats besides the point). If a trade deficit consists of capital goods, then it can be beneficial for an economy, much like a business taking on debt to borrow capital goods for the creation of future consumer goods. If the trade deficit consists of consumer goods (like the U.S), then it can be harmful for an economy because it will come at the expense of future growth/consumption. People who “export” money for consumer goods and don’t work enough to cover their monetary expenditures will have to draw down on prior savings, and if this continues, will eventually run out of money to fund the deficit (and face a preciptious drop in consumption). Similarily, an individual racking up credit card debt for consumer goods is not enchancing his productivity at all and will have a harder time paying it back/financing future consumption. If he doesn’t get a job to earn money and pay back his debt, he will have no way of financing his “trade deficits” at the mall except further borrowing. If worse comes to worse and he eventually defaults, then his consumption will really hit rock bottom because he can’t afford to buy anything. Aggregate that to a nation which imports consumer goods on the whole (the U.S), and you have a real problem.

You ignored most of his argument on why the Chinese will emerge as a dominate economic power. In fact you overly simplified what he had stated in a Youtube video a few months back. He actually qualifies this statement through analysis of a manufacturing base and the actual amount of industry power of China, which is what made America such a powerhouse in the world. He also goes into depth on how the Chinese economy will end up in the position of dominance in the world.

For the larger part of his analysis, he refer’s to the trend of the US becoming purely a service economy, while exporting all of our manufacturing base, which puts us into a position of having to rely upon China and other manufacturing base economies for everything we use as a society. It’s purely a logical conclusion when one looks at the given evidence that supports it. Part of this also goes into how the current level of Investing in the US has been primarily through derivatives, which as well know are not real items. This trend of using derivatives has done nothing more than to worsen the Inflation in the Austrian sense to the point where we are facing a looming Credit Crisis. Here he was not alone as several others in the Precious Metals market have stated the same exact thing by looking at the available data.

Not sure where you see America’s production peaking in 2007. If you mean production as services, then yes I can agree with you. However if you mean be actual products of export, then I simply have to ask for where you obtained your information, as I have seen nothing that supports this. Right now in this Global Economy a country with no exports, and an over-abundance of Imports we are living on borrowed credit. To say otherwise, I would state is to deny reality. Another conclusion of Mr. Schiff is that when Foreign buyer’s stop buying into this credit line of the US that those same bonds will start coming home, and we will simply have no method to pay them without debasing our currency even more so, or defaulting. This is the same argument that the Austrian School so far has made. The difference is that Mr. Schiff went through and put the theory into the calculation and what it’s effect would be. Also Mr. Schiff has covered the US as the largest Creditor and Debtor Nation before. He went into depth about how the change occurred, and the benefit’s and downsides of both. Honestly, I agree with him, that the being the creditor nation is far better than being the debtor.

I’ve never seen him claim that China is a freer or more Capitalistic society in any other essence than the effect’s of their banking system in comparison to our own. That’s the only time I’ve ever heard him refer to this. In reality, our current system is hardly free, and far from being Capitalistic. The Federal Reserve System is clearly an insult to Capitalism and Freedom. Add in the EPA and several other regulatory system’s, then anyone that doesn’t see this hasn’t spent any real time in business themselves.

He’s not seen as the ultimate authority, but he is seen as one of the most modern examples of it in real life. He puts Austrian School into effect, and makes a money with it. That in itself is a testament to his support and take on the theories themselves. You haven’t demonstrated anything other than your grasp on some of his statement’s to be out of context, and simply limited. It’s not like he hasn’t provided enough information on his take of the subject, it’s that you haven’t seen enough of it to make and accurate judgement. You missed a large portion of his thought in your analysis, and limited your post to a few out of contextual comments. HyperInflation will happen with the continuation of this QE policy.

Esuric, everything you have just explained or expanded on, I have absolutely heard Peter Schiff discuss, one time or another. It may not have been explained entirely in the passage that you quoted and were replying to, but he has said pretty much everything you just did, at some point.

EDIT: double post

EDIT: I see the other posters did a better job than me refuting Esuric. So I shall remain silent.

Esuric, did you miss this post of mine? I’m very interested in seeing a response from you.

By the way, I’d like to note for the record that I’m in no way a complete Peter Schiff supporter. Having watched the video Liberty Student linked to, I’m definitely uncomfortable with the foreign policy he advocates.