Is it hard for you to be an Economist???

I’m really confused about this thread. Why was the OP attacked in the way that he was? He was just defending the ideas of minarchism. It’s not like you have to believe in anarchism to believe in the principles of austrian economics. Ludwig Von Mises and Carl Menger were both classical liberals. So… it’s not like you have to not believe in the principles of Rothbard as if it were some religion, to understand the values of freedom and choice.

OP, I hope you stick around. As you can tell there are a lot of Rotbhardians here… but we’re not all anarchists here. There are quite a few minarchists here… but just a lot of people seem to take the dogmatic approach to anarchism here. That’s just my observation here.

Thank you Jacob.

No, thank YOU man.

Absolutely… and this was actually pointed out to the OP. But as far as I’m aware, it went completely discarded.

Dogmatic approach? Huh? I’m open to persuasion, always. Do you have any arguments against anarchism, or defense of the state? I’d be more than happy to consider them. I don’t like being wrong and enjoy the challenges of those who make me question my position. You could maybe start a thread about it? Preferably addressing the “limited government is utopian” quote from earlier in the thread.

The dogma that the state or the government is the embodiment of all that is good and beneficial and that the individuals are wretched underlings, exclusively intent upon inflicting harm upon one another and badly in need of a guardian, is almost unchallenged. It is taboo to question it in the slightest way. He who proclaims the godliness of the State and the infallibility of its priests, the bureaucrats, is considered as an impartial student of the social sciences. All those raising objections are branded as biased and narrow-minded. The supporters of the new religion of statolatry are no less fanatical and intolerant than were the Mohammedan conquerors of Africa and Spain.” - Ludwig von Mises, Planned Chaos.

There’s also the fact: he only stopped short of anarchism due to “technical considerations”. [:)]

Time for a group hug!

Aww you guys [:$]

Cite?

Does not compute

Read the whole sentence: do you not know what “or rather” means?

2. You use rather when you are correcting something that you have just said, especially when you are describing a particular situation after saying what it is not.”

I don’t think your generalization of the community members here is accurate.

"(or rather, it is a place that attracts many unreasonable people who are only here to be rude and call people names)"

Really? But hey, you’re entitled to your opinion.. what do I know.

I think its a shame that Selgin has so far merely made a rather odd motivational speech that involved encouraging a fellow to read widely. …suggestions to read relevant subject matter have of course been made much earlier in the thread. Selgin was dismissive of the forum members. Selgin has not offered a response to Wolfman’s questions. I would say that for all their failings, many forum members have at least addressed Wolfmans questions and statements directly.

NigrahamUK: Surely you and I must not be reading the same posts!

oh, i’m reading the same thread. you only did what many other posters had already done and you’re trying to play the hero. pardon me if I don’t ignore other posters here in this thread.

The OP states in his first comments:

wolfman thereby made a post that injected politics, ie. gov’t. He wanted to talk about real economics (whatever that means) and so the third poster in the thread tried to clear some things up which I saw as obviously a positive approach before the thread needed to go in the direction it did. Look through the thread numerous other posters tried to clear this up and also offered sources to further help wolfman learn some more on the economic topic, if he so desires. Then another poster also felt the need to post a bit on how posters in this forum are not economists to further elaborate on this topic in order to help direct wolfman to, again, if he took the suggests by other posters he would have checked out the sources. Without discovering the assumptions behind any theory, including economics, then nothing will lift off the ground, including economics.

I don’t know what else people expect from this type of forum when it’s obviously, for the most part, a first contact for many people to Austrian economics, amongst others things, in their life in general. It should be therefore an expectation to find this forum to experience it’s up and down’s. A lot of jagged edged individuals will roll into here. Jagged of course to those that have honored themselves as polished, which might be valid. I’m not arguing that. Or when when certain participants of the forum try to pass off rhetoric as reason, but anyhow… To put it simply, do I need to explain the story the first time my grandmother tried to drive a vehicle, I mean the first time ever in her life?

I encourage you to be more substantive.

why do you make the statement that we must not be reading the same posts?

Really? It was? I guess then that explains why people were saying that the OP didn’t know much about AE. If someone actually understood AE they wouldn’t have discarded this statement. I suppose all the OP knows about AE is from Ron Paul, and, what he sees on the forum. I used to actually believe that it was only for anarchists until I read the works myself.

I’ll think about it. I’d be willing to debate with you. I take more of a Misean-Hayek approach when it comes to the state. It’s more of a necessary evil at best. When I think about it more the only real reason why I think the state is necessary is because I don’t really see how a system without common law, or, a constitution, would work in real life. I know that states in their present state are way too big, they’re gargantuan states, like in 1984 and in Brave New World. I mostly believe in the original justification for a state- that a state is supposed to provide equality under the law and liberty for its people, not to work against the people, or anything like that.

How do you think a topic on this forum about how states have veered too far from their original purpose would go here? I’m just kind of curious as to the reaction that it would get… all I meant by people taking the dogmatic approach to anarchism, is, that I’ve seen people here argue against the whole concept of minarchism thinking all the time it being impossible, while, arguing for something which what most people would consider to be impossible themselves. So, a lot of people have become so disillusioned with the state that they think a mini-state would therefore be impossible. I suppose I could make a topic on that, though, I will say that I don’t think I’m nearly as well read as other people are on this forum. I’ve mostly gotten my knowledge about libertarianism from Ron Paul, and, I’ve only recently began learning about classical liberalism, from reading the works of Ludwig Von Mises and FA Hayek. I’ve read Economics in One Lesson, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism, and Principles of Economics, The Libertarian Manifesto, and a few other works, but my knowledge about economics is somewhat limited, so I’d be justifying my arguments based on what I think about rights and liberty, etc. I’m more of a political philosophy kind of person than an economics kind of person.

Yeah, it was. Hopefully someone shows the OP this video of Ron Paul, where he makes it clear his real goal is voluntarism. That might change his mind?

The point being, economics is meant to be value free. You can be a Nazi supporter (political philosophy) and still be an “Austrian Economist” (economics - value free). Generally, those with an understanding of proper economics… (which uses “methodological individualism” - the term was used to differentiate between individualism - in political philosophy)**… tend to individualism in the philosophical sphere as well. Hence classical liberals, libertarians, anarcho-capitalists.. etc. They see the benefit of the division of labor, property rights etc.

“I don’t really see how a system without common law, or, a constitution, would work in real life.”

I didn’t know how either. But I was confronted with the the numerous contradictions; one being - “How can you say the state protects private property, when it must violate it to exist?”. So I kept reading on and on.

It would depend on the level of argument & logic. If the person uses emotions & personal feelings - it probably wouldn’t go down too well. It’d be a hard case to make though, considering:

“In complete contrast to the orthodox opinion on the matter, then, elementary social theory shows, and will be explained as showing, that no state as just defined can be justified, be it economically or ethically. Rather, every state, regardless of its constitution, is economically and ethically deficient. Every monopolist, including one of ultimate decision-making, is “bad” from the viewpoint of consumers. Monopoly is hereby understood in its classical meaning, as the absence of free entry into a particular line of production: only one agency, A, may produce x. Any such monopolist is “bad” for consumers because, shielded from potential new entrants into his line of production, the price for his product will be higher and the quality lower than otherwise. Further, no one would agree to a provision that allowed a monopolist of ultimate decison-making, i.e., the final arbiter and judge in every case of interpersonal conflict, to determine unilaterally (without the consent of everyone concerned) the price that one must pay for his service. The power to tax, that is, is ethically unacceptable. Indeed, a monopolist of ultimate decision-making equipped with the power to tax does not just produce less and lower quality justice, but he will produce more and more “bads,” i.e., injustice and aggression.” - Hoppe, Into Demo. God that Failed

I came to this through Ron Paul as well. You’re on the right track. [:)] I’m also more into political philosophy, than economics - at the moment. How did you find For a New Liberty? What else have you read on anarcho-capitalism? [:)]

I haven’t seen the video yet. But I’m really shocked that after gaining the knowledge that AE was not just about anarchism that someone would just decide to reject its main principles. It seems like the OP didn’t know as much as he/she thought he did about AE.

An Austrian Economist would know economics is meant to be value free.

What you’re referring to is Libertarianism. A political philosophy, i.e what should or should not be law.

Granted - most Austrian School followers, are also Libertarian / voluntaryist / anarcho-capitalist etc etc. which has created your confusion.

The point being, economics is meant to be value free. You can be a Nazi supporter (political philosophy) and still be an “Austrian Economist” (economics - value free). Generally, those with an understanding of proper economics… (which uses “methodological individualism” - the term was used to differentiate between individualism - in political philosophy)**… tend to individualism in the philosophical sphere as well. Hence classical liberals, libertarians, anarcho-capitalists.. etc. They see the benefit of the division of labor, property rights etc.

I think that was also pointed out to me back when I was a noob here. But I didn’t really understand what that meant until much later. I at first thought that the AE only allowed for anarchist way of thinking like it was a religion. But… it’s more of a means, to an established ends. And with that you can be any ideology, or, anything like that.

“I don’t really see how a system without common law, or, a constitution, would work in real life.”

I didn’t know how either. But I was confronted with the the numerous contradictions; one being - “How can you say the state protects private property, when it must violate it to exist?”. So I kept reading on and on.

Well to be honest, I’m not set in stone with my beliefs. I’m what one would call a political-schizoprenic. I waver with my beliefs in minarchism and sometimes I revert to anarchism and vice-versa. So I wouldn’t be justifying the state. I just think in practice- the idea of having a state that would preserve people’s liberty- in practice would be more acceptable to me than under anarchism… the same things can happen. I mean… I can see how a lot of our freedoms are violated under the state… but I just would rather have a system where our rights are guaranteed, because while I think we can agree in principle on the idea of natural rights on liberty… some people might have different ideas of natural rights that are different than others, and, well, you’d have some problems living under an anarchistic society. I think that an anarchistic society could very well work too. I just am not sure.

It would depend on the level of argument & logic. If the person uses emotions & personal feelings - it probably wouldn’t go down too well. It’d be a hard case to make though, considering:

“In complete contrast to the orthodox opinion on the matter, then, elementary social theory shows, and will be explained as showing, that no state as just defined can be justified, be it economically or ethically. Rather, every state, regardless of its constitution, is economically and ethically deficient. Every monopolist, including one of ultimate decision-making, is “bad” from the viewpoint of consumers. Monopoly is hereby understood in its classical meaning, as the absence of free entry into a particular line of production: only one agency, A, may produce x. Any such monopolist is “bad” for consumers because, shielded from potential new entrants into his line of production, the price for his product will be higher and the quality lower than otherwise. Further, no one would agree to a provision that allowed a monopolist of ultimate decison-making, i.e., the final arbiter and judge in every case of interpersonal conflict, to determine unilaterally (without the consent of everyone concerned) the price that one must pay for his service. The power to tax, that is, is ethically unacceptable. Indeed, a monopolist of ultimate decision-making equipped with the power to tax does not just produce less and lower quality justice, but he will produce more and more “bads,” i.e., injustice and aggression.” - Hoppe, Into Demo. God that Failed

I was thinking that I’d do something more in depth. I’ve been deeply concerned about the loss of our civil liberties for quite some time. I think rather than acting as a servitude towards man, rather than acting as our servant, or, whatever people think a state should act as that the state has drifted so far from that so now not even our government. But like with other governments too- they’re actively oppressing their own citizens, and, they’re making what totalitarian regimes have in the past, look like childsplay. Pretty soon all of the stuff the totalitarian regimes in the past will look like nothing because of what we have been doing in the War on Terror. I’d make my topic backed with lots of evidence, and, proof of what I say. I know that one can argue morals all you want… but you have to have evidence to back up your claims too. So you have to put your money where your mouth is, or so to say.

I came to this through Ron Paul as well. You’re on the right track. I’m also more into political philosophy, than economics - at the moment. How did you find For a New Liberty? What else have you read on anarcho-capitalism?

I found For a New Liberty when I wanted to know what libertarianism really was. I knew people said Ron Paul was a libertarian. I just wanted to find out just what the heck it was so I could understand where he was coming from, and, to learn about the philosophy.. However, unbeknown to me, it took me completely by surprise. I had no idea what to expect from Rothbard. I haven’t read any other books on anarcho-capitalism.

I tend not to read AE thinkers books related to economics though. It takes me a long time to grasp what they’re saying, and, what theory they’re attacking, and what not. I would prefer a straight-up book on capitalism, or, economic theory, but I can’t bring myself to reading Human Action, or, Man, The Economy and the State. I find their political works far more interesting. But I find reading about economics to be somewhat tedious.

I don’t quite get what you mean.

“If a theory is correct, then it does work in practice; if it does not work in practice, then it is a bad theory. The common separation between theory and practice is an artificial and fallacious one. But this is true in ethics as well as anything else. If an ethical ideal is inherently “impractical,” that is, if it cannot work in practice, then it is a poor ideal and should be discarded forthwith.” - Egalitarianism Revolt Against Nature

I’d suggest you keep reading about anarcho-capitalism. Do you think the free market works? Well what about a free market in defense? In roads? The courts? etc. there have been examples of those throughout history - it has worked before and will work again.

The State versus Liberty

Society Without a State

Not sure how you’re going to go about defending the state, or denying anarchism - but I’d be interested. That was the reason for the call for a thread if you wanted to discuss these ideas, not keep bumping this dead thread.

And you didn’t find FNL convincing? It’s a good intro, the key is to keep reading on.

“Is it hard for you to be an Economist?”

I have come to the conclusion that there really is no “economics”. In reality, when one says “economics”, one is generally referring to the study of the consequences of government policies on the market and the individual. Which means if there were no government, there would be no economics to study. And really, the only thing one needs to know about this subject is that governments consume wealth, and the private sector creates wealth.

Most of the time when the main stream media refers to “economists”, they are really more likely referring to financial advisers instead, because most usually have no clue how government policy affects the market.

It gets a lot easier the more you do it. A simple concept to explain to most people is the fact that government borrowing crowds out money for the private sector to borrow. What’s not so easy, is to get people to understand how all government spending is consumption of wealth.

by the standards you set fourth, you would have Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke as economists, along with every talking head on T.V. with a PHD in Economics.

you say that an economist must have training in a legitimate university. but what good is that. every author associated with the Mises Institute may well meet this qualification, but they disagree almost down to the last point with the professors who taught them. so why then is this a qualification?

I have thought about going back to college, changing my major to economics and getting a degree. but those in the Criminal justice department seem to have not the slightest clue what the Bill of Rights are about, and the economics classes were so bad I called BS before I started reading the authors here.

Why should one waste his time and money on a government run education for the title economist when the “education” he would receive runs entirely contrary to the Austrian school, and to liberty?