Nobody is advocating state school. I don’t advocate taxation, either, but if someone wrote a post asking if they should mail the IRS a turd instead of a check I’d recommend they don’t. State-run schooling is atrocious, however on the whole the more education you attain the lower your chances of unemployment and the higher your salary. It is not impossible to overcome - there are other ways to get an education that will fly past an HR department, and some small sliver of people succeed without by doing their own thing - but it is something you will have to overcome nonetheless and you should understand that before you act.
Indeed. I think it can’t be overstated how unfair the effect of State regimentation is with respect to socioeconomic classes - there’s always a free market, the question is how far down the socioeconomic strata the free market is permitted to operate. However un-free the masses are, the upper class has always been wheeling and dealing with each other… Rembrandts and yachts will never be price-fixed.
Clayton -
the top ten business collages is a mix of public and private, so i don’t see anything neccicarly worse about public education that private. the only real difference is in funding and missions statements and all but i don’t think a class on game theory or such would be radically different.
the education rank stats of how well collage graduates do were on education, not public education, people can get all their education privately.
I was primarily schooled in the U.S.
Some things I was taught that are flatly incorrect:
- The idea that lowering tax rates can can increase revenue has been refuted
- The great depression was caused by competition and a lack of regulation
- Anti-trust was a response to the barons of the 19th and early 20th century engaging in price-fixing against the consumer
- Science is a continuous/perpetual process of knowledge or truth discovery, conducted exclusively by extremely qualified and unbiased individuals
- The Roman Catholic church has done everything in its power to suppress the discovery and dispersion of knowledge
- Roosevelt’s policies pulled the U.S. economy out of depression
- Slavery persisted for so long, especially in the U.S., because the free market demanded it (U.S. economic supremacy was built on ‘the backs of slaves’)
- Crimes rates in the U.S. are exceptionally high because of lax gun control laws
- Native-Americans were peaceful, nature loving humans who knew nothing of greed and property
- The middle-class was created by the federal backing of labor unions (cartels)
- Global temperatures are rising because of human industrialization
I really could go on. The key point, though, is that every single bullet-point (with the possible exception of the last one) has been entirely refuted (both empirically and theoretically,) and yet, these points are continuously regurgitated by high school teachers and found in high school texts.
Just a few years ago there was a major controversy in the U.S. because some high school teachers wanted to include Hayek, one of the most important thinkers of all times, in the curriculum.
I would say that the ‘facts’ you get in school are rather incidental with respect to the true intention of schooling anyway. It isn’t what you are learning, it is how you are learning and the behaviors you develop that persist long after you graduate.
The schooling system is designed to encourage the seeking of external rewards (mostly approval of authority) through repetitive operant conditioning. This however dampens internal will. Internal will is what fuels curiousity and self-actualization. You might also argue that being herded as you are in school develops a tendency toward conformity. Think Stanford prison experiement style mesmerism. ‘Schule’ originated in Prussia before being adapted by the U.S. and most of the “free” world. (See John Holt, Peter Gray, John Taylor Gatto)
Therefore, I wouldn’t worry too much about being taught the wrong facts. It won’t really injure your prospects to be taught outdated scientific knowledge or to get lessons in the state’s account of history. I’d be more worried about being subjected to psychological conditioning.
The perception of drop outs as bums is probably due to a selection bias. The types that could pass but choose not to are simply rare- most of the time it’s those who couldn’t make the cut (though I’d question even this; I know of at least two drop outs [mostly due to drugs/being overall hooligans] who are doing well, one is a self-employed contracter and the other is in sales and probably has a promising career ahead of him). You’re basing your knowledge of the importance of a diploma on a poor sample. Really, if you’ve got a good head you’ll be completely fine.
+1 Walden, you absolutely nailed it
That’s a really good point. Most dropouts (that I have knowledge about) have been because of drugs, street gangs, criminality, or a combination of the three. But how many have dropped out for the reasons that the OP has? How many have realized what the OP has?
I’d like to see “success rate” of people who have gone from public/private schooling to home schooling because they should be considered dropouts as well.
I totally agree, and this is definitely the more important issue. Thank you for highlighting it.
Can we add Walden’s post to the “Collecting the good forum posts” thread? Definitely deserves to be there.
This particular point cannot be underscored enough. Absorning incorrect facts is not that big fo a deal unless the vast majority of what you’re absorbing is incorrect. The human brain is a “noisy” learning device anyway - even when you’re taught the correct facts, a significant percentage of that is not correctly internalized and only gets straightened out with time and practice (trial-and-error). So, not getting the perfectly correct scientific facts is not that big of a deal.
Clayton -
I don’t know you well enough to say what you should do. Since your only 15 I want to say stay in school and work a part-time job. The only way you’re going to make it as a drop out is if you have a plan, like a detailed plan not just a “I’m going to be a manager” kind of plan, but one where your steps are all plotted out and thought through. The other thing you need is a good work ethic, but you don’t even turn in your homework sooooo…I mean, your not even willing to do the bitch work to get by, in other words, your not even doing what you have to do in school to achieve a goal. It seems to me you need to stay in school, join some clubs and get some experience there and maybe in 3 years when you gain some more experience from part time employment, and you have some money saved up and you are legally emancipated, then get your GED and do what you want.
A question that this brings up is, what techniques do schoolteachers use to shape desirable behaviors, and what are the desirable behaviors. Sometimes it helps to know the conditioning that is being faced in order to work towards banishing it.
@eliotn: Well, you can start by looking at the architecture of most schools which can only be described as a cross between a morgue and a prison. From the distance, it looks like a prison complex: blockhouse architecture surrounded by high fences. Low, flat buildings with “minimalist” details. The interior decor is absymal with all the beauty of a main entrance to an ER. Double-doors, bad checkboard linoleum floors, bleak hardware, just no taste or beauty whatsoever.
Desks are non-functional, non-ergonomic, ill-fitting. There is no privacy. There is no space that is really yours. There is no comfort area (soft-seating) to seek repose. Interaction between the teachers and students is impersonal - this is different from respectful… a respectful relationship is still personal. Most teacher-student relations in government schools are either impersonal or improper and overly-personal.
The biggest message of all is sent to kids of upper-middle class versus middle and lower class - the popular kids (i.e the kids with rich parents) can get away with anything, get all the girls (or non-loser guys) and there is no recourse to this state of affairs. Attempting to rectify it only makes things worse for you. Sit down, shut up and stay out of the way of the the cool kids, the jocks and their bitchy girlfriends.
The bell rings at regular intervals, using classical conditioning to inculcate herd-like movement from station to station, from breaks to lunch to when it’s time to punch out at the end of the day. Kids are inculcated from an early age that teachers are the most trustworthy confidantes and that the motives and behavior of parents should be held suspect at all times. Even the school year itself is a rehearsal for the cookie-cutter life you are being prepared for. Consider this old hit from 1981:
And not only are we being trained to “work for the weekend” (ignore intolerable conditions 5 out of 7 days in anticipation of the Pavlovian reward of drunken excess at the end), we are also being trained to work for the summer, that is, for retirement. Retirement is a completely modern invention. Nobody ever retired before the 20th century. You got too old to do manual labor and either your family put you up, or you lived off your savings, or you found other ways to earn an income/room/board. You will be put through this cycle 12 times to really drive the message home: life consists of a long run of misery, followed by a brief respite and then the end.
Clayton -
If i control everyones education, and without penalty of what i teach, i will teach them that i am their master, and that i am the solution to everything.
Im sure that it is the same when government controls education.
If i control a person’s education, but if what i teach comes with a penalty if it is false, i will teach them the truth.
No penalty is placed upon the state. It is always blamed on students, or teachers.
Clayton +1.
I dropped out of highschool after being pretty immersed in online libertarian culture and I can’t recommend it more. I don’t know what your situation is, but in California I was able to take an exam with a math and an english portion to satisfy my highschool requirement (I did not get a diploma or any sort of certificate like a GED). Then I went to community college and transfered to university. I’m ahead of most other transfer kids because I started college at 17 and I didn’t have to deal with the bullshit classes they were making me take in highschool (there are still bullshit requirements for any Bachelor’s degree, but it’s much more tame).
It really depends on what you see yourself doing in life. I decided I wanted to study computers during my freshman year of highschool and my interest hasn’t changed since. If you’re more uncertain about what you want to do then community college might not be the best option and it might be better to study a technical profession and do secondary school later when you have a better understanding of what you want in life.
Bide your time and don’t jump into a permanent romantic relationship (aka knocking someone up regardless of legal/residency status) until you’re on a sure footing.
At first I was like “lol” then I was like “shit, this is actually substantial advice for modern Americans right now.”
It doesn’t matter if you “know her”, they’re all the same - they’ve all been programmed by the television, schools and magazines since they were knee high that they are owed the world and that the government is there to make sure they get it from whoever is foolish enough to have a child with them. Think of it as involuntary privatization of welfare.
Well, my girlfriend’s not, nor are a lot of my female friends, but then again I’m not tapped into nor friends with your average conditioned American.
There’s a difference between education, and knowledge/experience. I don’t know your grade or age (unless you posted it and I missed it), but if you’re a senior just finish it out, if you’re just entering as a junior or lower, then you could go ahead and get your GED, find a job soon as possible (since it’s fall all the college students are leaving their min wage jobs til spring), and save up as much as you can. Community college is underrated, and you usually don’t get the smug intellectual attitude from CC’s either. With the money you have you can actually read the books you want to read on your time, and CC’s have an (obvious) variety of classes to dive into and try out. If you decided on a trade, compare the same courses of the CC with the trade school. For example, I took some welding at my CC, but if I actually pursued it I would go into a trade school where the amount of hours per week spent on actual welding is nearly x10. One thing I noticed in CC is if you get the right teacher they will erase your mind of the b/s you learned in high school and you’ll actually learn something. 4 years of high school history and AP classes were eradicated by one semester in CC (I could tell my teacher had a very free-market stance and did not buy into the mainstream story of the Great Depression).
If you have you’re head on straight, in a way, you could have a 1-2 year start on those who finish high school, have money saved up, and already working on a career. If you’re living with your parents you could make the suggestion (most parents are not accepting of ideas against the grain), but have it planned out before so, so they know you’re not just full of shit. Already have any possible question answered. Obviously, read books. I think I’ve stumped even a few adults (and family members) to know that my hobbies have been reading books on econ theory, pscyhology, mythology, and philosophy. Sort of makes them have a different idea on “this generation.” Especially if you tell them you need to remove your television to make room for a bookshelf.
It depends on what you want to do. If you are going to be a doctor, lawyer, or a teacher then yes school is extremely important. Otherwise most people can do with out a formal education. I am anti-school because of the systems they have in place. I am not anti-education.
My cousin got a GED. He’s about 38, and he works as a janitor at a school.
Get your diploma. Get at least some form of post high school education. If not college, trade school. If college, go to community college first and then the big school if you can.
Is your cousin an absolute example of people who have their GED’s? I know people with degree’s waiting tables while friend’s with only their GED are getting their career’s in order with 2 cars and a kid, so yeah…
A question that this brings up is, what techniques do schoolteachers use to shape desirable behaviors
Teachers themselves aren’t using some Jedi mind tricks. I think it is correct to stress the system rather than the teacher relationship. This is why “good” teachers can never succeed.
Clayton:
There is no privacy. There is no space that is really yours. There is no comfort area (soft-seating) to seek repose.
Humilitation is a built in property of schooling. The discomfort and complete powerlessness of where you go and do is to break down the student’s spirit.
Post graduation, it will impart a condition of submissiveness to the state. Rather than filling out scan trons you’re filling out tax forms. Having completed 12 years of humiliation, the student believes self debasement and servility is a state of normality. Moreover, an isolated child (constantly changing classes prevent children from developing lasting relationships with peers and teachers with added time restraints with their parents) with the state as the only constant presence to be a central part of their being and survival.
Monkey see, monkey do- like school, interference with the lives of others is for their ‘own good’ becomes acceptable or even necessary. E.g., the moralizing left against the businessman and the moralizing right against drug users, etc. These things are for your own good or the good of the whole, not conincidentally the same argument you are taught in social studies WRT school.
The issue of economic planning: Children have different brains, development speed, life experiences, backgrounds and a central bureaucracy is tasked with planning their educations. The entrepreneur discovers and responds to market conditions, likewise the student discover which information and experiences will direct his resources only in the process of living and learning. Would-be teachers are stonewalled from meeting demand because of regulations. Schooling is economic planning on a massive scale- even under the assumption that the schooling authorities act in the best interest of a student, it is an impossible task.
My cousin got a GED. He’s about 38, and he works as a janitor at a school.
Why would you single out holding a high school diploma as the only quality that would impact his career path?