Luddite on Reddit - please comment!

I got into an argument with a person who believes that we can remove scarcity by having government apportion resources “efficiently.” Further in, he posted this on the topic on the need for labor:

I have ten people. All of them are, I don’t know, dust bin technicians.

I build a dust bin robot.

It can do the work of 4 dust bin technicians. It only takes two people to build it, and one person to service it.

Now I have one dust binbot, two dustbinbot builders, and one dustbinbot mechanic.

and one guy who is redundant.

The dust binbot guys make another binbot. the mechanic has enough time to service two binbots.

Now I have two dust binbot builders, two dust binbots, and one dustbinbot mechanic. I still have two dustbinbot technicians.

And five redundant guys.

So what do we do with all the people who are no longer needed? Whose jobs have become obsolete, who have been downsized and outsourced? We’ve still got the same amount of stuff. In fact we keep getting more and more stuff. But now all these obsolete people can’t buy the stuff. They don’t have anything to buy it with. So now we have people who can’t buy stuff, stuff we can’t sell, and lots of binbots.

I could build a robotic grocery store. Wouldn’t be very hard, even. And a robotic gas station, a robotic coffee shop, a robotic, oh, I don’t know, damn near anything. One Red-Box Kiosk is an entire Block Buster Video, and it replaces all the people who work at blockbuster with a couple of technicians. The entire health insurance industry could be swept away by a universal healthcare system. They’re not doing anything helpful or useful, they’re just unnecessary overhead that refuses to die. Wallstreet? They actually cost us money. All the financiers and hedge fund whatevers, zoosh! Totally useless, get rid of them. Janitors? Roombas. Airline pilots? Bad idea anyway, autopilot is more reliable? Taxi drivers? Google is going to have a Johnnycab on the streets in five years. Weather forcasters? They’re basically stand up comics at this point. Newscasters? Reddit does a better job for fun. Clothes manufacture? I could build a robot tailor that would fit in a retail storefront and kick out high quality clothes that actually fit you. Foxconn is thinking about replacing all it’s workers with robots that don’t jump of buildings. We have combines that can do the work of a thousand farmers. When someone eventually builds an automated lettuce picker the agriculture industry is going to be entirely hands-free. GPS guided robot combines can probably hoe a straigher row anyway. Soldiers? Why? We can do it better with robots, and since we don’t have to worry about humans we can pack more of them into less space and do things that would be suicidal with meat troops. God, what do people even do these days? the only things that humans do because robots can’t is some creative work, and we’ve got AIs on the way that will be able to do a lot of that.

We’re kept down by this persistent, hideous fear of actually accepting the future.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/pse9y/possession_and_property_lets_hear_it_from_the/c3sc1a9?context=3

This is standard stuff, yet I have not yet typed up a response to this argument. I’m thinking of writing one and submitting it to the Mises Daily if you guys think it might be good enough.

Here is my approach to the idea:

He thinks that the economy is some separate entity that exists outside of the satisfaction of human demand. This leads to him believing that you can have all of this technological improvement in the void, outside the market process.

What does this mean? It means that he thinks that automated everything would just “be made”, and suddenly no one has jobs.

Yet he never stops to think of what the purpose behind these businesses and time-saving devices is. The point is to bring a product to market. If everyone suddenly has no job and can’t use the services, then all of this technology is pointless. The shops would all fail because they would have no more purpose, because no one can buy the goods. Ultimately, production exists to fuel consumption, but before any consumption can be executed, there must be first and foremost production.

The fellow making the above argument arrives at a state in the economy where there is no production by the masses. Hence, there can be no consumption. Hence, the production of even the few people left with capital becomes pointless, as there is no demand for it.

The scenario he proposes is thus absurd.

Am I right, here?

I don’t know, I think you may want to dumb it down some more. His first argument is plain wrong: Technological progress does not lead to “obsolete people”. It’s not like we have 50% unemployment ever since half the population doesn’t have to work in agriculture any more. Labor is a resource, like iron, and iron-saving technology doesn’t lead to piles of obsolete iron either. We find new uses for it: We use less, therefore it becomes cheaper, therefore new uses become profitable. The same applies to labor. This is really just elementary supply and demand econ.

You’re right that he believes that technological improvement and efficiency gains exist in some sort of void. Or rather, he doesn’t see the circularity of the market process. Technological progress leads to more people being freed up to build robots, which again frees up people, etc. It’s a loop. But to him the market process is linear, requiring intervention at the beginning and the end. Technological progress apparently just doesn’t happen because we don’t want it enough. It needs to be planned by the state, because capitalists seeing all those unused resources piling up would just keep using expensive, inefficient technology instead of using some of those resources to build robots. And the droves of obsolete people, who can’t participate in the economy because they have no income, would just sort of stand there scratching their heads.

The belief that Wall Street doesn’t do anything and that market health care could just be replaced by government health care is typical for someone who doesn’t understand that economic activity requires calculation. These people think that factories just fall out of the sky at exactly the time when it’s economically reasonable for them to be built. Hence we could just do away with all those useless paper-pushers of the capitalist economy. It’s essentially the venus project argument. They’re saying that in capitalism we’re so busy pushing around paper to decide who owns what, that we’re not getting around to building enough robots. Automation could be achieved much more efficiently by some big socialist social engineering project, because it avoids the cost of calculation. And since we don’t need calculation, the only reason we could possibly be against this is that we are afraid of the future!

He’s not a Luddite. Actually he’s quite the opposite, he’s a Leninist.

What’s wrong with being a luddite/anti-tech?

How did I know this was coming. I swear the minute I saw who made the latest post in the main forum view I knew what the post would be. Seriously Freedom4Me73986, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

this individual obviously has very little experience working with robots.

“God, what do people even do these days?”

This statement is enough to display his ignorance. There’s oh… You know… A few billion jobs in the world economy, so I daresay that he’s going wrong SOMEWHERE if he can’t describe what it is that people do. Regardless of how their doing it

What he’s talking about is indeed vaguely a possible for the future, although those who pretend like its certain are utterly deluded. They often fail to make the connection of what is happening now to what has happened in the past, which is the increasing utilization of labor-saving capital which leads to an expansion of production possibilities, which in turn combines itself combines itself with an increased need for labor, leading to a constant, if not increasing, rate of total employment. So it goes that:

Labor saving machinery is introduced and then:

  1. The laborers are fired. Prices decrease, they find employment somewhere else, the number of products which individuals can buy goes up, this leads to an increase in profitable ventures from the consumption point of view because now either people can spend more on other types of goods, be they already in existence and that can be expanded, or new businesses which can now open up because of an increase in available consumer demand.

  2. There’s a decreas in price per unit because now the same amount of a good can be produced with the same amount of labor, either the same amount of labor can be employed and much of possibility 1 will occur, or more labor will be employed as production expands.

However, with this said the possibility of a robotic future is somewhat disturbing. This has the ability to put the common man on the street for the first time in history. Robots could theoretically do everything that a human could except possibly better. This could theoretically push out the common man from the production process. The fact is, however, that at absolute WORST we’re a good 40 years from that eventuality. A free market with a good educational system and a flexible labor market would be best suited for this, because then people could easily move to the jobs that they’d be better suited to with the radically changing demands of the market… Too bad we don’t have one of those.

"What’s wrong with being a luddite/anti-tech?

Asks the guy using the internet…

How did I know this was coming. I swear the minute I saw who made the latest post in the main forum view I knew what the post would be. Seriously Freedom4Me73986, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_8hZkXLU-w

So basically try and make people happier by depriving them of technology which they abuse because of a lack of character and self discipline. The fundamental problem: People who are mature enough to get rid of technology could use it wisely, appropriately, and in such a way that would improve the quality of their own lives.

EDIT

With this said, you still haven’t asked JJ’s question. I honeslty don’t mean to be impolite, but why are you here when you are mocked and interrogated all the time? …

See, I was going to make a long post about how I work with robots and I dont care if you do manage to make grey goo that destroys the earth, there is no way to make robot labor that supplants humans in certain tasks because of the meta-ness of the tasks. But when ted kaczynski here posted, I realized that I am not even sure he is human…so if they can make software that accurately replicates a white kid with a poster of bear grylls on the wall who is terrified of black people and technology, yet addicted to internet and social media, then maybe you could make a robot that designs robots that design robots who build and repair robots.

But when ted kaczynski here posted, I realized that I am not even sure he is human…so if they can make software that accurately replicates a white kid with a poster of bear grylls on the wall who is terrified of black people and technology, yet addicted to internet and social media, then maybe you could make a robot that designs robots that design robots who build and repair robots.

Kaczynski’s religion is anti-tech. Mine is not. Bear Grylls is fake propaganda made to make survialists look stupid. And I don’t want to associate with blacks. Theres nothing wrong w/ not wanting to associate with a certain group.

There’s nothing criminal about it- but it is a pretty pansy thing to do.

Wow. Just wow.

And here I thought Malachi’s comment was just a good joke.

Right, because proaganda is needed for that.

Again, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

There’s nothing criminal about it- but it is a pretty pansy thing to do.

Give me a break. You sound like a lefty. Race exists. Racism is lying about race.

Right, because proaganda is needed for that.

You know as well as I do that there’s a huge amount of propaganda against self-sufficiency. The government controls the media, the schools and everything else. Living off the grid is being made ILLEGAL for God’s sake.

I find it interesting how you avoid the more important question. One has to assume because it brings your hypocrisy to the forefront. Also, I’m still waiting for you to admit your lie.

  1. Are you admitting you completely made up your claims about Ron Paul being in first in New Hampshire polls?

  2. Why are you here?

Who is going to build and maintain all these robots?

I think you missed my point. Which is, that I think you’re a wuss for not wanting to associate with certain racial groups.

He has fun being here- and I have fun reading his posts however I might feel about them.

After you ask this question I think the argument goes that well even robots might become advanced enough to build and maintain other robots- which in that case I would think we’ve reached a utopia situation since no one ever has to work again.

  1. Are you admitting you completely made up your claims about Ron Paul being in first in New Hampshire polls?

Yes. I already told you this.

  1. Why are you here?

Why not?

No, you didn’t. Your exact words were “not exactly”, after which you proceeded to give some nonsense about how “there was talk” about it. You never actually admitted to anything.

a) because you claim to prefer living off in the woods

b) because you reject technology and claim to be “anti-tech” and Internet, computers, and this forum = tech

c) because you reject “civ” and Internet, computers, this forum and virtually everything about it = “civ”

Why are you here?