Some choice quotes from anarcho-capitalists (from the Mises Forum)

“Because asking questions in order to expose absurdities is evidence of a lack of understanding.”

What “absurdity” is being exposed by mistaking currency for the commodities it represents?

I love how arrogant you guys are, even when what you’re saying makes no sense. As I pointed out, your super-naive interpretation of money doesn’t work for STV either. And since when do Misesians not believe in currency?

Your reasoning is so ridiculous and yet you seem so confident in it that I can’t help but be drawn to trying to understand how the hell you could be so dumb.

This thread should be interesting.

Tremblay, just answer the questions within your objective theory of value…

Yes, do actually answer the questions, please.

You can’t get away with saying “OMG CAPITALISTZ DISCREDITED RITE FROM THE START, I DONT EVEN HAV 2 RESPOND.”

He was asking you to answer those questions with the theory of value you ascribe to. He can already answer them with his theory.

So are you going to answer those questions with your theory?

Sources?

First you admit the comments don’t represent everyone, then you also admit that not everyone here is a libertarian, then you say that comments made by another person make you embarassed to be a libertarian.

Confused much?

Well, you see, the objectivists (including Marx[1]) attempted to explain the value of money with various cost-of-production and labor theories of value. They asserted that the value of money (specie at that time) was determined by the costs of mining, refining, and transporting the gold from one location to the next. But you see, this explanation entirely collapses once specie was replaced by various fiat currencies as the common media of exchange.

Of course, this wasn’t problematic at all for the economics community because, by the 1930’s, it abandoned outdated and theoretically untenable objective theories of value. But this remains a major problem for objectivists, which is why they no longer even attempt to explain the value of money, and which is why you’re unable to answer this fundamentally important question.

The fact that currencies sometimes appreciate and sometimes depreciate remains a complete anomaly to individuals, such as you, that still adhere to the dogma of objective value (where value exists independently of human action and consciousness).

Well, now you’ve retreated from a labor theory of value in favor of a cost-of-production theory of value. So, according to you, a bottle of wine appreciates in objective exchange value, by 1000%+ in many cases, because of the costs associated with keeping it in a wine cellar. But then, why does the value of computers depreciate dramatically when they are stored in inventories for extended periods of time? Maybe value really stems from wine cellars?

Okay, so now you’ve retreated from a cost-of-production theory of value in favor of the Marshallian framework, where value is determined by two factors, namely costs and subjective demand conditions. At this rate, you’ll be a Misesian in no time! Either way, your new position is inferior relative to the Austrian explanation because it relies on an unnecessary dualism. In other words, the Austrian theory of value is relatively elegant (Okhams razor); it doesn’t need to include costs in order to explain such phenomena.

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t even begin to explain why two physically identical goods, which require the same amount of labor for their production, demand two very different market prices (no additional transportation and/or storage costs). And it doesn’t explain why individuals in the NYC nightclub happily pay 4-5x the normal price of that product. Could it be that the two bottles of beer, though physically identical, are in fact two different economic goods that satisfy two completely different subjective desires? Just a thought.

First of all, money never initially takes the form of little green pieces of paper. Money initially emerges as commodity money (gold, silver, feathers, shells, etc) precisely because it is valued by large segments of society (most liquid commodity), which allows it to perform its function as a common medium of exchange and as a store of value.

If you went into the Amazon, right now, and offered some secluded indigenous tribe little green pieces of paper for their products, they would probably hang you upside down and skin you alive. I suggest you read Mises’ Theory of Money and Credit if you wish to learn more about monetary theory, and economics in general.

Finally, two of my questions remain unanswered. I expect a blog post from you tomorrow apologizing to all of your clueless readers for filling their heads with out-dated and already refuted economic doctrines.


[1] Capital, 1887, vol i., p.93.

Apparently you are familiar with Franc’s debate style.


The comments posted are super old news. Most of the posters who posted them are gone, some of them were pretty misguided quasi-Hoppeans who liked getting a rise out of people (trolling). Giles in particular completely reversed his stance, and ended up becoming fanatically against what he had written, both the good and the bad. That’s what happens as people evolve.

What was funny, is that BrainPolice posted that while still a moderator here, apparently he never really had any interest in representing LvMI or being honest in his criticisms. Like most of the left-libertarians who populated this board back in 2008, he’s moved on, apparently more to YouTube where he can control the debate and not have to confront other intelligent posters head on in threads, as he would have to do many times with me and others.

The irony of someone finding Franc’s post, is that he just repeated what BP posted, unsourced, out of context rubbish. It’s typical me-tooism, thoughtless and indefensible. I think Carson or Spangler may have also repeated this stuff (not 100% sure).

If one is looking for intellectual honesty, they aren’t going to find it on the left.

I find threads like this where the point is to see “who wins” rather than “hey lets talk and learn from each other” to be a waste of time. No debating skills are being sharpened here, just egos. Who cares what Franc thinks- his attitude shows his colors already, why fall into that game?

Francois, what’s the biggest difference between the Austrian School of Economics and every other school?

How many words do you think you’ve written on your blog overall? [Estimates are fine, take the number of blog posts and times it by an avg. word count - what is it?]

The simpliest of questions repeated… because they were ignored & dodged.

Esuric, you know the LTV, and at least you and I know that the LTV of marx is essentially a notion of not just cost of production but also of socially necessary labor time.

I read a bit of the guy’s blog and realized that he uses marx’s definition. I suspect that because we don’t recognize money in a marxist way or the social-historical contingency of economic development, that is why he dislikes us.

Anyways, the only critique I can raise against the LTV is the transformation problem -how does the LTV get over this?

Also, isn’t STV logically equivalent to the LTV? That is, the LTV says that price is determined by cost, labor, use-value, -time needed to create the product in general. STV says that price is based on human purpose -but costs, labor, utility, etc. are all objects or consequents of subjective value which means that whatever is true of one statement is true of the other. And so, their meaning is the same.

Finally, and this is unfortunate for the STV but isn’t the LTV a circular definition -value is equal to labor and labor to value?

Yes, but Marx’s version of the LTV does not really attempt to explain price formation in markets. It’s closely associated with his theory of history and the “laws of motion.” Marx considered the formation of market prices to be “chaotic,” in the negative sense. He was no idiot; he was fully aware of the fact that Ricardo attempted to explain actual price formation with a LTV, and that he failed miserably (forced to incorporate costs). This is where the Marxians and Neo-Ricardians differ.

It doesn’t. Some Marxians have tried to incorporate the element of time in order to explain it, and other’s say that it’s simply irrelevant because empirically, there is a relationship between labor and market prices. But the transformation problem is a definitive refutation of Marx’s LTV, and the implication is that wages and profit do not continuously fall in the long-run (empirically validated). Thus Marx’s theory is logically and empirically untenable.

Indeed, exactly. Marx’s version of the LTV, in fact all objective theories of value in general, tend to conflate value with market processes, which are solely guided by subjective individual desires (they confuse causality). The fact that prices fall towards the cost-of-production does not mean that value is determined by costs, but rather that market processes (competition and entrepreneurship) are effective.

When someone comes into your house and insults your hospitality simultaneously claiming to know better, do you invite them to stay for dinner?

^debating isnt taking one to dinner

and this is teh interwebs; as easy it is to be rude, it is also easy to be more forgiving too

LS, methodological individualism is gone now? What is this “left” you speak of as if it was on homogeneous acting block?

But yeah, intellectual honesty and all that.

Do you understand methodological individualism?

Lol. Over at the forums of the libertarian left we had a debate with him on this and after a while he just denounced us as capitalists and ended the debate there. Quite odd really. I’m surprised he hasn’t resorted to “subjectivists believe reality is just subjective opinion” yet.

Stephan Kinsella once joked that Francois Tremblay might be a capitalist double-agent…it might be plausible thats all im saying.

Only individuals act. Thought is an act. Intellectual honesty is an act. The left is not an individual, therefore it does not act. Therefore, it is not very keen to say that the left cannot practice intellectual honesty. Certain individuals on the left may not, perhaps even most of them. But the left is not an acting body, so it is fallacious to say it is.

Ah now, I came here showing solidarity with you guys after such shamefully dishonest tactics on the part of Francois Tremblay. Don’t ruin it by doing the same thing.

Oh and Carson did post these quotes but not as a way to discredit anarcho-capitalists in the same “OMG KAPITALISTZ THEREFORE BAD THINGS! I HAT U GUYS!!!” way that Francois is doing. He wrote an article for C4SS on the importance of challenging authoritarian attitudes within the libertarian movement, the quotes were an example to illustrate what he meant by an “authoritarian in libertarian clothing” not to “prove” anarcho-capitalists are bad people. I actually don’t see why any honest libertarian would be offended by him bringing them up in such a contex. If the quotes are nonsense then there’s nothing for you to disagree with, not in that part of the article anyway.

“When someone comes into your house and insults your hospitality simultaneously claiming to know better, do you invite them to stay for dinner?”

You tell me. People still seem eager to talk on this thread, despite the fact that I’ve outright stated that I don’t respect Misesians. So I guess the answer is yes, if you’re a Misesian.

Funnily enough, amindst all these stupid straw men about my worldview, my economic position, or my personality, none of you have addressed whether you believed in currency or not. I’m still waiting…

(PROTIP: a 50 dollar bill is not a piece of paper, it’s money- its worth is not measured by it being a piece of paper. But of course this only applies if you believe in currency… otherwise your economic position just makes no sense.)