I heard a lot of talk during the World Cup about Spain having regional tensions. Anyone from Spain know what this is about? It sounds like an 1860’s America kind of thing.
Spain, ever since the unification of the crowns of Aragón and Castilla, has only ever really consisted of Castilla. In modern geographical terms, Spain represents Castilla-La Mancha, Castilla y León and Madrid. This is Castillian Spain, or Spain. It’s a bit more complicated than medieval divisions, but it basically stems from the fact that prior to the late-1400s, Spain was never a unified country (apart from Roman occupation). As such, Spain’s divisions represent cultural divisions which have existed for a very long time.
The three strongest cultures are the Basque (who, according to their historic take, were never occupied, and this is more or less shown by the fact that the Basque language is completely unrelated to any other language in the area - even Celtic), Castillians and Catalanes. Also, Galicia is one of the European celtic nations, and they are their own culture, as well. By extension, it’s no surprise that these cultural divisions have translated into political divisions. The stronghold of the communists and anarco-syndicalists has always been Barcelona, and it remains as such to this day. Madrid is a more right-wing, pro-Spain city.
I feel that nationalist tendencies have been excited the most since the beginning of Zapatero’s administration. He really used these regional differences to win the elections, and has continued to do so to stay in power (as a way of undermining the Popular Party, which is Spain’s right-wing party).
So, the Spanish spoken in the Americas is Castillian. 3 different variations of “spanish” are spoken within Spain?
Canada has something similar going on. Quebec was a French colony until it taken by Britain. To this day nearly half of Quebec is separatist, losing the referendum on a 49-51%.
The Spanish spoken in the Americas is very close to Castillian, but represents a corruption of New Castillian (Spanish, or modern Castillian, is very different from Old Castillian, which resembles latin more so than today’s Spanish) possibly influenced by southern Spaniards. The other languages spoken are not forms of Spanish. Catalán sounds and looks like a mixture of Spanish and French, and is a completely independent language. Valencia’s Valenciano and Mallorca’s Mallorquín are all variations of Catalán. The Basque Country speaks Basque, which as I said, bares no resemblence with any other languages in the region. Galicia speaks Gallego, which is close to Portuguese.
This map shows the progression of Spanish cultural differences prior to the unification:
Catalan language is actually closer to Occitan which was spoken accros Southern France until 1800 or even later than it is to Spanish (Castillian). So it is not only a regional difference but also an ethnic and even national (depending on your persective I guess) difference.
However this also tells you that if such regional differences exist today in Spain it is also because she did not carry out an ambitious state driven assimilation campaign in the manner of France. France would have had even more linguistic heterogenity than Spain but for its forceful campaign to erradicate use of languages other than French. In 1800 maybe accross 40% of France’s territory dialects derived from Langues d’oil were spoken. The rest spoke Occitan, Breton, Basque, Corsican, German and so on.
Isn’t their lingo mutually intelligible with Portugese?
However this also tells you that if such regional differences exist today in Spain it is also because she never carried out a state driven assimilation campaign in the manner of France.
This probably reflects on the historic weakness of Spain’s central government, which is probably a further reflection on the general poverty of Spain throughout history.
And yes, Galician is similar to Portuguese. Regarding its Celtic heritage, I don’t think Galicia is considered one of the five European Celtic nations, but I think their claims to Celtic heritage derives from the existance of the castro culture (which was influenced by Celtic migration to prehistoric Galicia).
What do you suppose made Castillian overtake the others?
They won all the civil wars. Catalunya has the tradition of always choosing the loosing side. Even our national day celebrates a defeat (I am catalan). Go figure.
Btw, I am a bit disconnected from local (catalan or spanish) politics because I find them extremely boring, but lately I am truly amazed by the growth and force of the independentist movement. Never in my live I have seen so many people openly asking for the independence.
And I have to disagree with Jonathan about Catalunya being more socialist. The issue is that the right wing in Catalunya is against Franco and for a more social-democrat european style conservatism. On the contrary, Madrid and castillian right wingers are more pro facist (not all , in general). This is due to being on each side of the last civil war. For example, in Catalunya, PP (spanish right wing) does poorly but we have CiU which is the catalan right wing party. Except the last 7 years, CiU has been the party in power here, and if nothing changes dramatically they will again in the next elections (1). So I dont think Catalunya is more socialist than the rest of Spain, is just that the Spanish right wing, PP, is hated here and has small support. I always though that Andalucia was the most socialist region of Spain.
(1) Curiously enough, the only thing that is threaning CiU’s victory is the growing independentist movement. This is very curious for the following reason: As I said CiU is the right wing catalan nationalist party. They always talk about independence as a long term objective, but never as something achievable short term. This is not surprising, since the catalan bourgeois has always been good corporatist, and as good corporatist they talk the talk but never walk the walk. Catalan bourgeois have always talked against Castillia but have never stopped making arragements with them. Castillia is arguably the biggest market for catalan industries. For this reason, now CiU is between between a rock and a hard place. They dont want to radicalize their message too much, becuase that would scare some of their more moderate voters, and give arguments to PSOE, but on the other side they are loosing votes to the growing truly independentist movement that is grwoing tired of CiU indecision. The best option for CiU is to center the debate in the economic crisis, that is the reason people is leaving PSC/PSOE (the party in power both in Catalunya and Spain). And for that they need to avoid the nationalist/independentist debate, but they are finding it increasingly difficult.
This thread is extremely interesting, and I have more questions about Spain.
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Before Franco’s ascension and before the Civil War, who exactly were all the factional political groups and how radical were they in their beliefs and demands?
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Are there still Arab-speaking minorities in Spain?
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How much of the old Phoenician/Carthaginian/North-African culture still remained of that civilization back from the days of Queen Dido?
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Did ethnic differences between Spaniards spill over into South America when they colonised it?
Prateek,
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Spanish politics prior to the Spanish Civil War were very complicated. Spain has, for most of its history, been an extremely unstable nation. Relevant to the civil war, the period of extreme volatility can probably be traced to the final years of Miguel Primo de Rivera’s dictatorship, which ended in 1930, which also coincided with the beginning of the Great Depression. After the abdication of King Alfonso XIII, who had supported the Primo de Rivera dictatorship, Spain transitioned into a period known as the Second Spanish Republic. This Republic lasted just about 4½ years (December 1931 to July 1936), and was marked by extreme political volatility and little economic and social progress (anything the eleft did in 1932 and 1933 was later unraveled when the right took power in 1934). It was also marked by frequent social unrest throughout Spain, which was usually dealt with in the same manner regardless of the party - the asaltos. Believe it or not, the CNT (anarcho-syndicalist) were actually the stronger of the two main left-wing political groups in Spain, the other being the UGT (communist). It was only after the onset of the Spanish Civil War that the UGT overtook the CNT, largely thanks to help from the Soviet Union. The division between the UGT and CNT, and their fight for power, was one of the major reasons why the right won the civil war. Then, of course, there were the usual regional nationalist parties (PNV, et cetera).
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Spain has a large Arab population, although largely the result of immigration. Most of the Arab and Jewish population was forced out of the country after the re-unification in 1492.
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None. Spain’s culture in the south is very Arabic, while that farther north is more Castillian. I don’t really know much about the Catalán and Basque cultures.
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No. Actually, it’s interesting to note that South American immigration to Spain is what may allow political differences to subside. South Americans who move to Spain tend to be very patriotic, and don’t share the same cultural differences as indigenous non-Castillian Spaniards do.
I see.
Are the political differences an unchangable reality to which everyone must conform and accept? Do people nonetheless still feel it would be much better to just have a little less political uncertainty and divisions, so that civil society can conduct its activities without worrying about big political changes?
It’s relevant question for those of us in the Asian context, since our borders were just drawn up without much of a common culture or history. Relatively common cultures end up split across both sides of the border while relatively different cultures are forced into one common country. It’s a common trend across Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Sri Lanka, India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Central Asia. I am curious about what has been the European solution to such problems and whether they can work out around here.
Prateek,
They are cultural and ethnic differences which form into political differences. Currently, the division in Cataluña and País Vasco between nationalists and pro-Spain/indifferent are probably near 50/50.
The European “solution” has been “devolution”, or the granting of autonomy to different communities.
Perhaps not to the same extent, but under Franco Catalan and Basque were outlawed, and there was an attempt to wipe them out. The reason that the Spanish Basques seem far more motivated to gain independence than the French Basques is almost certainly because of this recent attempt to wipe out their culture.
It’s a matter of degree. The Portugues will tell you that Gallego is Portuguese, but the Gallegos disagree. Catalans will tell you that Valenciano is Catalan, but the Valencianos disagree. My take is that Gallego is probably its own language - although very similar to Portuguese - and Valenciano is a dialect of Catalan.
There wasn’t a uniform solution. For most Europe it was the redrawing of borders sometime coupled with population transfers. For the Soviet Union it was affirmative action coupled with strict control. For a part of West Europe it was ideological insistence that primary identity of a person is decided by the political entity he is subject to rather than his ethnos. Many of them also used assimilation campaigns to various degrees, for various ends and to various outcomes.
On a completely unrelated note I am happy to see that map posted by Mr Catalan takes pain to aknowledge differences of language like Provençal, Sardinian and Gallo-Italian.
I think it’s unfair to use the word ‘corruption’ here. I’m often struck by how similar people from Seville tend to sound to Latin Americans. In the colonial period, from what I understand, most immigrants from Spain were coming from Andalucia and Extremadura. These regions share a similar contemporary dialect/accent and there’s reason to believe the same was true in the past. Furthermore, nearly all immigrants passed through Seville (the major port before silitng of the Guadalquivir and Spain’s richest city at the time) on their way to the New World. It’s likely that most of the language peculiarities were solidified in Seville if the individuals didn’t already possess them (ustedes, seseo, etc.)
To change the subject, I’ve recently found myself fascinated with the Spanish Civil War. It’s a very overlooked event, at least here in the US, but it foreshadowed the clash of democratic republicanism, fascism, and socialism during World War II. The Russians, Germans, Italians and sympathetic Western liberals fought for their ideals in this theater. In Catalonia, there was even a (semi-successful) attempt to establish an anarchic state; unfortunately this was compromised by having to align with Moscow. If you like literature, Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia and Hemingway’s For Whom the Bell Tolls are two books that give fictionalized views of the war from the inside. Also some good films which are set during/in the aftermath of the war are Pan’s Labyrinth, The Devil’s Backbone, and The Spirit of the Beehive. I’m really just digging into this period of history; lots of reading to do. (Having trouble finding literature and histories of the war in the Spanish language; if any of you Spaniards or other Hispanohablantes care to make some recommendations I would be quite grateful.)
I think it’s unfair to use the word ‘corruption’ here. I’m often struck by how similar people from Seville tend to sound to Latin Americans. In the colonial period, from what I understand, most immigrants from Spain were coming from Andalucia and Extremadura. These regions share a similar contemporary dialect/accent and there’s reason to believe the same was true in the past. Furthermore, nearly all immigrants passed through Seville (the major port before silitng of the Guadilijaeil and Spain’s richest city at the time) on their way to the New World. It’s likely that most of the language peculiarities were solidified in Seville (ustedes, seseo, etc.)
I think it’s unfair to use the word ‘corruption’ here. I’m often struck by how similar people from Seville tend to sound to Latin Americans. In the colonial period, from what I understand, most immigrants from Spain were coming from Andalucia and Extremadura. These regions share a similar contemporary dialect/accent and there’s reason to believe the same was true in the past. Furthermore, nearly all immigrants passed through Seville (the major port before silitng of the Guadilijaeil and Spain’s richest city at the time) on their way to the New World. It’s likely that most of the language peculiarities were solidified in Seville (ustedes, seseo, etc.)
One book I read maybe four years ago, and I suggest to everyone interested in subject, is Pío Moa’s Los Mitos de la Guerra Civil.
3. How much of the old Phoenician/Carthaginian/North-African culture still remained of that civilization back from the days of Queen Dido?
Very intersting boon on “Phoenician” (and not “Carthaginian”) trade and colonization with a very heavy focus on Spain:
http://www.amazon.com/Phoenicians-West-Politics-Colonies-Trade/dp/0521795435
Thanks Jonathan, that sounds promising. I’ll be looking for an affordable copy (the trans-Atlantic shipping is the killer.)
A large answer has just been lost . I’ll do a short summary of that.
I am a Catalan as well (surprised to not be the only one).
The independence social support has been growing very fast in the last years, due to many political events. It used to be a taboo topic but now it arises in many conversations. Social division is growing rapidly too, as this topic is gaining importance.
All polls show that in an eventual referendum, the independence option would be the winner. That referendum is not likely to happen in the short term, however.
There are elections in October. The winner will be CiU, a socially conservative and fiscally not-very-interventionist party. Their position in this topic is a permanent yes-but-not-now.
The question in that elections is if they will obtain a majority. It seems that they won’t. A cause of that is Catalan parliament fragmentation. There are now 6 parties in there. One of those is likely to go out this autumn. 3 new parties have some probability of getting representation. I am sure 1 or 2 of those will achieve that.
One of those is a new political party whose only goal is getting independence. Its leader is former FC Barcelona president (FC Barcelona is the most important institution in Catalonia, sometimes being said that its president is more important than Catalonia’s president). He’s quite popular but also a bit controversial.
There’s another party openly independentist, but it has been losing support despite the movement growth, because of their alliance tactics, that has priorized its “left” part over its “independentist” part.
That’s it for now. I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have.