The supposed “Holocaust” is used to detain people all over the world, strip them of their rights and put them in prison for a non-crime, a thought-crimen of free thinking and asking questions. And I bet that unfortunately even many libertarians would support such kidnappings because we are been told that anyone who questions the holocaust must be a nazi and nazis are bad because of the holocaust, a word, used everywhere, if there is no holocaust, then that word is as void as napoleonist, British imperialist, tzarists. The holocaust is one of most influential events, it goes beyond governments, it’s able to detain people based on thoughts, “you think less than 6 millions jews die? → Jail” “You think the evidence presented as gassing is not solid → Jail”.
You are told where the world is going to, to a totalitarian thought-police, and you don’t care.
People of all kinds of nations, ages, backgrounds are standing circus-trials, defending freedoms, fighting against injustice, telling the people that they have been lied to by the government, and here many libertarians side with the state out of fear of being labeled “antisemites”, what happened to “Tu ne cede Malis”?
I honestly can’t believe some of what I read in this forum. Isn’t it bad enough that this site, dedicated to free markets and Libertarian ideals, attracts its share of Fabians, Anarchists, “Truthers”, closet collectivists, and moon landing skeptics? Do Libertarians actually have to be associated with Holocaust-deniers as well?
No, it does not necessarily make you an anti-Semite to question the Holocaust, but it does make you ignorant to the point of self-inflicted brain damage. I guess it’s just hard for you all to believe that a bunch of collectivists trying to build an empire on slave labor and petty thievery would, on occasion, act irrationally. I suppose some of you believe that the History Channel is a tool of Zionist propaganda. Even if there were not one second of footage, or one U.S. soldier to witness its aftermath with his own eyes, we still have the countless volumes of facts and figures, compiled by the Nazis themselves. They seem never to have thought for a moment to destroy their precious record books as they hurried to liquidate the camps in a feeble effort to cover up history’s most horrible and most well-documented crime.
I have finally found one group of people that I can honestly say annoy me even more than the Trekies.
Way to paint the entire libertarian community on the mises.org forums with one brush taken from someone clearly expressing a minority viewpoint. For the record, people of all persuasions post here and they more often than not get a fair hearing because, contrary to popular opinion, libertarianism is not a closed community. If someone comes on here and wants to argue a case, even an unpopular one, they will usually be met with reason and open-mindedness. I can’t say that about too many other boards.
I don’t know what planet you come from, but I’m afraid that around here, you are far more likely to end up in jail for buying nasal decongestant.
And by the way, you are preaching to the wrong crowd. NAZIS are evil because they are national socialists, which is basically Statism on steroids. And we don’t wait (At least I don’t) for them to gas people to call them out for what they are: criminals, thugs, terrorists, and whatever.
As a principled libertarian, I say the State, being an illegitimate institution in the first place, is always guilty until proven innocent. The evidence you have presented here is unconvincing and insignificant compared to what has been already presented by the prosecution. Your arguments are all fallacious regardless of the evidence. Your defendant is guilty! And No, not because the American Fascists say it is so, or because the Socialists in Israel say it is so, but because I say it is so, and so do many, and I believe most, other principled libertarians.
The fallacy of the “Manifest Obviousness of Holocaust”. Where is the evidence? It’s obvious, I’m not going to debate. Jail them!
Contradictory logic, “the state did bad things(which are obvious and can not be investigated), therefore we give more powers to the state to do more bad things(destroy free speech and the whole institution of justice, by considering submitting defense evidence as a hate crime which will get you more years in jail)”
Your self-suicide and wishful thinking where you show yourself. “Even if there were not one second of footage, or one U.S. soldier to witness”… basically even if there is no proof we can imagine them in our minds! And it will be the same you know, real proof on the spot and imaginary fictions in my brain. Because statist are bad and kill people… but lying? that the state never do! Propaganda! Never, states never fake reasons to justify their wars…or do they? I’m just using your arguments against yourself,
Tell me, can the states lie? can the states create and use propaganda to justify their actions? to justify wars?
Get real. I’ve yet to see anybody in this thread take this position. Libertarians do not support hate speech laws or laws infringing free speech whatsoever. Nobody here would jail you for saying what you are saying.
Ironic when you say “Anarchists, “Truthers”, closet collectivists, and moon landing skeptics?”… you show yourself as the closet collectivist of the one-way of thinking and acting, they only one way of seeing and interpreting things…we don’t need to be told what to believe regarding this events.
You are free to believe the tax money they steal went for a heroic landing in the moon, I understand you, it would be a great event for humanity and helps you be proud and happy. That’s why it worked so well, Of course you can check the evidence, the people, the questions. Or you can hung to the happy dream of a nice world where the state and NASA take your money for good things and never lie or use you, they respect you dear taxpayers, they would never lie to yours truly!
Because the state never lies right? It’s powerful, can organize massive killings like the nazis, but lying? Nooo.
"I’ve yet to see anybody in this thread take this position. Libertarians do not support hate speech laws or laws infringing free speech whatsoever. Nobody here would jail you for saying what you are saying. "
You are right, they would stand aside and watch. It’s too Politically incorrect, you can talk about the constitution, but I have yet to see a book campaigned titled “The Incorrect Guide to the Holocaust”. Only those who are not so afraid of what ignorants think of us dare to cross that path.
Interesting… You reject the “official” view of history that took place in front of a camera and was witnessed first hand by millions of survivors, but readily believe whatever you find in some dark corner of the internet.
The Zeitgeisters would be proud of such brilliant scholarship.
You reject the “official” view of history that took place in front of a camera and was witnessed first hand by millions of survivors, but readily believe whatever you find in some dark corner of the internet.
Camera? What pictures are there of any gas chambers besides arial shots? Witnessed by millions of survivors? I haven’t heard any legitimate testimony from any survivor about gas chambers.
“from 45 years to now the number of Jews murdered in Auschwitz-Birkenau has dropped from six million to less than one million. It’s official data. Indeed, even if they had killed one man, that would be a tragedy. But how is it that some historians may legitimately question the numbers of the Holocaust, and others can not? How is it that some people can reduce the six million to less than a million and nothing bad is happening to them? How is it that some people are not allowed to examine this subject and even be wrong, while other historians are allowed all this?”
Are you not aware of the economic phenomenom of free-riding? Subsidies for “holocaust” survivors create “holocaust” survivors, and worse, it hurts the real survivors of the war and it’s attrocities.
for those who may be interested in the economic rents that flow from the holocaust, norman finkelstein’s book is interesting. he does believe in the holocaust as it’s described conventionally.
butz “the hoax of the twentieth century”, makes the point that the allies were especially interested in the auschwitz zone because of the natural rubber crisis. synthetic rubber was produced in this area, and the germans were world leaders in the technology. the zone was under intensive scrutiny.
nuremburg “justice” permitted hearsay to be included as evidence. 300 000 affidavits - defense having no opportunity to examine these “witness” statements. most of the american prosecution team were german jews, resettled in america after the promulgation of the nazi race laws. the outcome of the trial was as certain as saddam hussein’s conviction not that long ago. the supporting pillars of the holocaust story are very shaky, hence the need to criminalize those who point this out.
I came across an interesting comment from a meeting of US and Japanese Generals in the 1950’s , apparently Japan never seriously condisered trying to invade the US, one reason being that the general popultion were too well armed.
I wonder if a minimal state France and “movitaved” popultion could have kept Germany from invading it in 1939???
it was france that declared war on germany. had this not been the case, germany may not have invaded, preferring to deal with its neighbour diplomatically. see halbrook on the swiss world war II experience:
Can’t say I’ve read this topic too carefully, the heat to light ratio is pretty high, mostly coming from the screeds being posted by the anti semites and holocaust deniers. That said, I’ve got a few tentative points I’d like to put forward (which may, or may not, be responding accurately to what people have written).
The Holocaust was not an excuse for the Allies to enter into the war, each of the Allies have their own reasons for entering into the war, as well as their own justifications to the private. Nonetheless, the Final Solution only got going in 1942.
That said, the Holocaust was still carried out and 5.2 million Jews were still killed (or so we claim). As far as libertarians should be concerned, that is a far more worrying truth. Despite all of the efforts involved in the war, 5.2 million Jews were still slaughtered at the hands of Hitler amongst millions of other minorities. If you want to make an argument against WWII you really need to show evidence for the counterfactual that without the fact less than that would have died as a result of Hitler’s twisted ambitions, I’ve heard arguments from reputable historians to this end before.
The argument “WWII sucked and is justified by invocation of the Holocaust, therefore the Holocaust did not happen” is not valid.
Whoever said that the Jews have been hated because they like to whine is an idiot. Jews have been hated throughout history for largely the same reasons that they’re hated today. Jealousy is a strong motivator and Jews have always been disproportionately represented in the group of people who are high achievers. The fact that the Jews never had a strong central government to go to war with a nation that treated them badly unlike most other people hardly helped.
On a related note, when the Jews were engineering history where did Jew taxes, pogroms and the like fit in? And as had been mentioned, how is it that three most important libertarian thinkers (Rand, Rothbard & Nozick) were of Jewish descent?