Recently I have started watching documentaries on Top Documentary Films website and I came across an interesting one called 1/3 of the holocaust. Has anyone else seen this? It is literally 4 hours of facts without the Alex Jones type rhetoric or unsupported conclusions.
Any thoughts on it appreciated 
Conspiracy theory movie? What’s it about? (I know it’s about the Holocausy, what does the “1/3” refer to?)
The Narrator examines 1/3 of the Holocaust (Treblinka is the main camp he focuses on, among others) and offers the counter evidence that the number of deaths in the camps is exaggerated and more likely due to a Typhus epidemic than gas chambers.
What attracts you to a film like this?
And how do you think the conclusions are relevant to ideas of the Mises Institute?
I really don’t see how Holocaust revision as really our cup of tea.
You don’t think death from typhus should be included in the death count?
It doesn’t matter whether they died from gunshot, typhus or tripping over bumps. They wouldn’t have tripped over those bumps if they were not detained there.
It matters alone by the fact that a difference between “someone having been killed deliberately” or “someone having deceased by an infectious disease” is made in our moral, ethical and juridical understanding.
It matters also because the horrible pictures of dead bodies caterpillared into mass graves were used as proofs for mass murder (in one scene included in the movie scenes mentioned above Billy Wilder, the director of the footage, unintentionally steps into the scene).
The shock effect of those footages prevent us from taking notice of other important historical developments, such as the Havaara agreement or to mention another detail: convicted Nazi criminal Eichmann had studied Zonism, spoke hebrew and once was actively supporting agents of the Haganah running camps to prepare settlers for their live in Palestine.
The informatons of those parallel developments are buried under the emotional shock effect of the pictures, what was their propagandistic purpose.
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch08.htm
If you kidnap and detain someone in your basement, and they die of an infectous disease as a result of terribly poor hygiene, could you be convicted of murder under a modern ethical and juridical understanding?
No one here thinks the allies were angels, but yeesh… No need to stand up for the Nazi’s.
“If you kidnap and detain someone in your basement, and they die of an infectous disease as a result of terribly poor hygiene, could you be convicted of murder under a modern ethical and juridical understanding?”
No, maybe involuntary manslaughter or something, but not murder.
political correctness and self-censorship are today’s soft totalitarianism. it amuses me to think that anyone believes a free society is possible where lies (well-intentioned or otherwise) flourish unchecked.
in war, the victor writes the history. codoh and the institute for historical review are the go-to sites for those who are prepared to ask the hard questions. there are libertarian sites like the last ditch which will discuss these matters and take the resulting heat and vitriol. their loyalty is to free enquiry and speech, chips fall where they may. alt right is another libertarian project where questions are asked that are bound to raise hackles.
the occidental observer doesn’t deal with holocaust denial per sé, but discusses the political ends to which the accepted holocaust narrative has been, and continues to be used.
Not only the victors are writing history - its worse.: Imagine a state where a little more than 35.600 book and jounal titles are banned *1. “History” has to be taught in the government’s official version which openly does not claim to be the truth, even the laws obliging citizens to stay at the official version do not accept “truth as an excuse” *2. . Those who seek the truth are jailed, lawyers are jailed for claims to submit evidence because courts refuse to take notice of any new evidence, the facts as published by the ruling elite are regarded to be openly obvious, no discussions allowed *3. For provocation and demonstrating absolute power a terminus technicus from the time of inquisition an witch hunt is used by courts *4. As national colours those of a former paramiltary SA/SS like organisation are worn, banners in their colours are flagged as national flag, the official story however is different *5. By deliberately suppressing important facts by the Government and intellectual elites, the population is tricked with a fabricated image of history *6.
The state: Cambodia 1968
or
Nazi Germany?
Its Germany 2011.
*1: http://www.bookrags.com//wiki/Censorship_in_Germany
*2:
*4 http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Offenkundigkeit
*5 http://www.nomediakings.org/malte/ha/mageinleit.pdf
*6 http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/302.html
Many links are in German.In short: 35.664 book titles are banned in Germany. Officially those books damage the youth or show Hitler in an non monsterly style. The Government presently tries to control internet information flows and has extended the Holocaust denial legislaton to all countries of the world by punishing those, whose websites can be accessed in Germany, doing its alleged “damage” there. That this threat is no joke was demonstrated on Australians, Canadians and one British citizen, jailed for up to 5 years for openly having debated the Holocaust in their own countries and available in the NET. “Google” searches for WWII related topics show more and more “blocked by legal reasons” .markings, often those blocking announcemets fill the size of half the page, when searches are carried out in Germany. When the German minister of justice Zypries tried to introduce the German denial legislaion into the European states it contained the hidden protection of the official German version, in which “truth is no excuse”. A functionaire of a refugee organisation in Thüringen was accused of “Holcaust denial” having (correctly) reported the observation theat the sign showing the numbers of victims in Auschwitz had been changed. The term “Offenkundikeit” from the dark ages of witchcraft is used by German courts to refuse any submisison of evidence, even for the smallest details. The change of the numbers of victims in Auschwitz led to an altered general sum of the calculation, which is ignored by courts. By law any evidence against assumed openly obvious facts HAS to be accepted, but even the highest court in Germany confirmed an exception for Holocaust topics. Reason: Because courts had always behaved that way. Lwayers even only asking to submit evidence in favour to prove the truth for their clients are jailed for denial with no debate.
After communists failed to creat a Soviet like German communist state; fighting a bloody civil war from 1919 to 1924, four large paramilitary organisations fougth on in that civilwar: SA (the SS was a subgroup), Reichsbund Schwarz-Rot-Gold; peaceful as the SA, “rote Frontkämpferverbände”, Stalin’s German troops; “Stahlhelm”, German national conservative fighters. All shot on each other. Today we are told that only the SA was shooting, being criminals and Germans have to wear “Schwarz Rot Gold” being told to be 1848 colours of the revolution.. The German people are hijacked by their honour telling them to be descendants of a uniquely criminal ancestorship; the “atrocity gene” and racism being still virulent in them. That"Eugenics" was an international movement which nearly received an own Nobel award and the Nazis were higly appreciated especially in the USA for being a modern model state, having laws of race hygiene, directly copied from their US collegues, is not mentione wiith one soingel word; not in schools, not in universities.
You can’t go to jail in Canada for this.
I’ve been visiting the Mises forum for several years (had another nickname before this one), and this type of topic is, unfortunately, very recurrent. I had the displeasure of participating in such an exchange a few months back, and I feel one could spend a non-negligible amount of time debating holocaust deniers on this website alone.
But - and maybe it’s a detail about the historical libertarian movement that I’m missing here, as I’m a relatively young libertarian - I still cannot answer this question: given that fascism, as an ideology, is the diametrical opposite of liberalism (which is the professed ideology of the Mises Institute) why are holocaust deniers and Nazi sympathizers so attracted to the Mises message board?
Probably because you can get away with unorthodox views in general more easily here.
One murder by a State is a crime which should be punished as it would be if committed by any other violent organization. This would likely result in the dismantling of the State and fatal retribution to the head of State and other participants in the conspiracy to murder may be justified. The murder of millions by rampaging socialist States in the 20th century is the sad, inevitable consequence of the logic of subsidized aggression. The German and Russian expressions of this subsidized aggression were particularly severe and the number of lives ended and the amount of property destroyed is truly staggering.
In my view, the Holocaust is a fairly ill-defined historical event since the Nazis were fairly prolific murderers and they were far from unique in practicing ethnic cleansing and political imprisonment. It is clear that they were interning and starving to death (and probably shooting, poisoning, etc.) untold numbers of undesirables who could no longer be fed under the socialist warfare State - a problem which was an embarassing indictment of the economic bankruptcy of National Socialism. The Jews were convenient scapegoats and they were harassed, exiled, expelled, and ultimately starved and butchered along with many other politically disfavored groups.
In any case, the real crimes are those that were committed against the individuals who suffered them regardless of the group they belonged to. It is not possible to commit a crime against “Jews” or “Jewishness”, let alone “humanity”. The use of such terminology by groups like ADL when threatening lawsuits or engaging in PR-bullying for supposed “anti-semitism” rest on the same aggressive power of the US or other host governments. Such behavior is inexcusable and, while far less injurious than murder, of course, would not be tolerated in a just society on any pretext. Without its political and economic utility in propping up the narrative of anti-semitism, I doubt that as much focus would be placed on the Holocaust as it receives. Stalin’s Holodomor - an extermination of the same order of magnitude as the Nazi Holocaust - is a little-known historical event in the popular consciousness, especially relative to the widely known Holocaust. I don’t have any respect for those who grandstand on historical atrocities for narrow, selfish political purposes. And, at the end of the day, all such politicking occurs within the framework of the State-as-it-is which is always just another incarnation of the same beast whose insatiable appetite for human suffering and death has already swallowed up uncountable lives.
Clayton -
Some of the silliest things to ever be heard. Murder has little to do with Socialism. The Socialism of Nazi Germany killed precious few people. Its colonialism was what killed people on a wast scale. The only unique thing about the Nazis is that they did not flinch from practicing the harshest forms of colonialism on Europeans, the only unique thing about the Soviet Union that it adopted the methods of colonialism against its own citizens.
Assigning the blame to Socialism seems to be a convenient way to close your eyes to non-Socialist killers. I notice you did not mention America out there with the “expressions of subsidized aggression” albeit last time I checked the US was basically built on ethnic cleansing and its body count in the 20th century probably matches the Holocaust. It was not American Socialism that was the bane of Vietnam but American colonialism. Same as it was not Turkish Socialism that was the bane of Armenians, but Turkish colonialism.
@Marko: I think you’re misunderstanding how I use the term “socialism” - I don’t mean “the antonym of mercantilism” which is how most political punditry today uses it. Socialism - in its broadest sense - is the subsidy of one or more individuals on the backs of one or more other individuals. In other words, any forcible transfer of wealth in society is a form of socialism… redistribution. Every State is inherently socialistic by virtue of what it is: the expropriator par excellence. The Nazi economy was centrally planned and controlled. It was a fascist (actually, I prefer “mercantilist”) war economy. The Soviet economy also was centrally planned and controlled and it was largely a war economy, as well. Full central control of the means of production and the full bent of the productive capacity of the subject people in a region to war production (total war) was a novel invention which reached its zenith in the 20th century (invented in America during the Civil War, the first modern Total War). As explained by Dr. Hoppe, total war is the predictable and inevitable outcome of democratic government.
As for the under-appreciated role of economic policy in Nazi Germany, please read this.
As for your remarks regarding colonialism, I think you’re confusing colonialism and imperialism but both are expressions of the more general aggresive expansionism which is a characteristic of any State.
Clayton -
No argument here… the American government is one of the bloodiest in world history. We’ve wiped out untold numbers of Native Americans and Mexicans, massacred Philippinos and Japanese, and continue our policy of dishonorable war-by-murdering-civilians to the tune of over a million dead Iraqi civilians and tens of thousands of Afghan civilians. We invented total war in our own Civil War and our “hero” General Sherman resurrected the hellish, barbaric practice of “breaking the will of the enemy” by burning down their cities and then sicking the troops on civilians who raped and assaulted them for sport, took their livestock and other wealth as booty and their children as slaves. It was considered very innovative and ground-breaking in the military strategy circles of the day. Its culmination was, arguably, the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, snuffing out more than 100,000 Japanese civilians in the blink of an eye. But the policy really continues unabated with GPS guided 2000-lb bombs which level entire neighborhoods filled with civilians and unmanned aerial drones which are used to hunt and kill anyone fingered by ground troops as “a threat”. Am I pulling any punches? Would you like me to dive into more detail and talk about our participation in the slaughter of millions of ex-Soviet refugees who we forcibly repatriated - knowing full well they would be shot for the “crime” of desertion - in Operation Keelhaul?
Clayton -
political correctness and self-censorship are today’s soft totalitarianism. it amuses me to think that anyone believes a free society is possible where lies (well-intentioned or otherwise) flourish unchecked.
in war, the victor writes the history. codoh and the institute for historical review are the go-to sites for those who are prepared to ask the hard questions. there are libertarian sites like the last ditch which will discuss these matters and take the resulting heat and vitriol. their loyalty is to free enquiry and speech, chips fall where they may. alt right is another libertarian project where questions are asked that are bound to raise hackles.
Please, stop trying to pass this thinly veiled antisemitic bullshit off as edgy free thinking. I’m all for challenging popular misconceptions but when you blindly parrot any conspiracy theorizing as a means to support your own priors that’s about as far away from “being prepared to ask the hard questions” as you can get.
Please, stop trying to pass this thinly veiled antisemitic bullshit off as edgy free thinking.
This is why anything remotely “right wing” will always fail - it is gleefully contrarian to norms and thinks that is “edgy”.