The Holocaust--what would the best way of stopping it have been from an Austrian perspective?

Miscellaneous History
141

Exactly. I’m not too interested in a full discussion of WWII, but the holocaust is supposed to cover up the moral grey area to make us the good guys.

I’m not sure this is true. For all I’ve read on the Second World War, never have I come accross a historian arguing that the holocaust was what justified our intervention (I’m sure someone has made the claim, but my case is that this isn’t widely accepted). Our intervention in the Second World War is usually justified on the grounds of Japanese and German aggression. The points are more debatable (in terms of their supposed justification) from a libertarian perspective, but the libertarian perspective isn’t exactly relevant to anybody who doesn’t hold libertarian values.

142

If the holocaust was unknown to the allies it could not have been the justification for entrance.

143

Everything relevent was known to the Roosevelt admin, but Roosevelt was anti-semite.

144

What “german aggression”? It was Britain who declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

British people were saying “why should we intervene in Eastern European disputes?”

Germans were saying “our country has been broken up in pieces under eastern europeans countries”.

And also the Germans were the only ones seeing and preparing to do something against the soviet imperialism, first uniting their former country together in order to be able to defend and withstand Europe from the incoming soviet assault. Western Europeans help them by arming the soviets, allying with them and giving 2/3 of Europe to Stalin as a gift.

The aggression was first, Soviet, and second, British (fire bombings), and third American.

Why the hell do you claim you liberate Europe? Who invited you? Nobody! You invaded Europe! You rewrote history and keep your troops there to make sure your version of history was told on schools.

Really, so arrogant, “liberation of Europe?” sure, just like the “liberation” of Irak or Afganistan.

145

So the Germans, at best, were the 4th msot aggressive country during WW2?

146

And Player completely misinterprets a post (not surprising). In case it wasn’t obvious enough, I wasn’t defending any particular justification for the Second World War. I was making the point that the Holocaust is the least of it.

147

Answer yourself, which countries were isolated, separated by seas, and away from east continental europe…Britain and America, who declared war and send their armies and bombers to cross the sea..so, yes, they were the aggressors.

And the soviets had been murdering millions of people for years by now, gulags, siberia, purges, they were the most evil regime of the time.

Those who support an evil regime, are evil regimes.

148

Oh, the holocaust is important, is a distraction that hides the real truth, the evil ones were the soviets and the allies help the soviets, The real holocaust was the soviet regime. If you take the courtain of the supposed jewish holocaust, then you will be able to see, to center your attention on the soviet union and it’s allies, why did Britain and American allied themselves with the Soviets? That fact alone destroyes the very idea of a good war, it was not.

149

Americans died to give 2/3 of Europe to Stalin, young american kids were sent to fight for Stalin, they fight for communism, for the soviet union. So all the veterans should be ashamed and say sorry to the Europe they betray and gave to Stalin, they were used for the advancement of communism rule, they are traitors to western civilization and human rights, they fight for the wrong side.

150

Different sources will give different stories based on different translations and different biases. The pop portrayal as a rule attempts to blacken the Germans as much as possible, supposing that there was an iron curtain policy to prevent jews from escaping and a policy to wipe out all jews from the planet. In reality jews could not leave only because they were not allowed anywhere else and their own obstinance. The official position of the German jewish associations was to stand their ground in Germany to the 11th hour. It should have been obvious that the Weapons Act of 1938, specifically forbidding jews from making or possessing weapons, was a precursor to terrorism.

It makes no sense to assume that the attitude toward jews was the same from 1933 to 1945. The hostility ramped up continuously due to the worldwide efforts of jews to fight the Nazi Party. The actions taken against jews by the Nazi Party became increasingly severe over time.

151

http://flimmr.passagen.se/movie/family_guy_germany.action

I’m reminded of this…

152

Conventional history finds it impossible to explain such an alliance, between the soviets and britain/america.

The were allied, because they were ordered to.

Because those who ruled(and created) soviet union ruled over Britain and America too.

So, cui bono? Who benefited? Whose ruling power was threatened in the 2WW? Jewish rule, influence and control of governments.

Germany refused to have them in government, ask them to leave, to immigrate to other places, they offer to negotiate and find a place for all of them.

That’s what the war was about, who would rule who, power, control as always, and it shows who rule the world.

It was an attempt for independence and breaking of the control jewish had on mostly all governments.

It was a revolution in fact. That’s why it had to be crushed at all cost, and soldiers of all the empire were sent to crush that insurrection.

153

Caley,

I’m not even sure what you’re talking about anymore. We were discussing German intentions in the final solution, not anything else.

The pop portrayal as a rule attempts to blacken the Germans as much as possible, supposing that there was an iron curtain policy to prevent jews from escaping and a policy to wipe out all jews from the planet.

To some degrees, this portrayal is true. Jews were shipped to Poland from non-Germanic countries, including Italy. At some point, it was evident that Hitler’s intentions were to kill those who he deemed unfit for a new, Aryan society (not only Jews, but Slavs, gays, the handicapped, et cetera).

It should have been obvious that the Weapons Act of 1938, specifically forbidding jews from making or possessing weapons, was a precursor to terrorism.

I think resistance is a better word (and I’m not trying to differentiate Jewish resistence with Islamic terrorism).

It makes no sense to assume that the attitude toward jews was the same from 1933 to 1945. The hostility ramped up continuously due to the worldwide efforts of jews to fight the Nazi Party.

It had more to do than with “worldwide efforts of Jews”; it was a systematic campaign to dehumanize the Jew in front of the German population.

154

I mean the terrorism against the disarmed jews. The Weapons Act was the precursor to gun control in general, aimed at relieving aggressing agents of danger from the target group.

155

“systematic campaign to dehumanize the Jew in front of the German population.”

Really? And I thought it was the other way around, a dehumanization of germans who eat babies, were barbarians threatening all europe.. that was the american jewish press was printing. You can check it out, I gave books before detailing lies told in the war.

Maybe, the german press was controlled by the jews, therefore censored, and when they lost control, other things which were suppressed were able to appear, things like “this people are not like us”, “they don’t share the same german/christian values”, “they have a whole independent system, closed, racist, they don’t care about the society they live in, or the welfare of the people they live in, they put their jewish loyalty to their groups before their countrymen”.

You call this dehumanization, I call it “dechristianization” and “jewishization” of the jews, show them as they are, that is DIFFERENT, they are different, have different values that by many were resumed in being parasitic, not being thankful to the countries that open to them and instead escalate into power closely between themselves and use that country for their own religious/political agenda.

Of course it ended in insults and easy depictions, but don’t start there, start in the reasons they gave.

A country has a right to control it’s immigration, if it believes a group of people are a threat, not inserting in society, working together against it. What is so weird about that government and society stating that fact and asking them to leave?

Was there jewish terrorism or not? The papers of that time were having headlines asking jews to sabotage and attack germany, not just economically boycott, but any means to stop them, even terrorism. That was before the war, when the nazis took power. How democratic of them! They support democracy only when their puppets rule (today 60% of US campaign contributions come from jewish).

German papers were not asking american-germans to do sabotage or anything like that, and still american-germans were detained and interned in america, the same with the japanese. They were even putting warnings in the press not to board boats like Lousitania because it was carrying military supplies and considered a legitimate military objective. They spend money even in buying adds to do things like that, I bet you never heard that one.

But now the bad ones are those who detained a group who is publicly calling for sabotage and terrorism against that country? Really?

156

Right a serious historian would have a more complex philosophy of WWII, but the reasoning given to us in high schools was that Hitler is bad because of the holocaust, so we have to stop him and that makes us the good guys no matter what. Without the holocaust, WWII does become a lot more debatable, even on non-libertarian grounds.

157

So now the Holocaust undermines Libertarianism somehow so we should question it. And I thought I had heard it all. But never did I think that somebody could actually attempt to make the case that the atrocities committed by the National Socialists somehow undermine the Libertarian cause and strengthen the cause for Statism. WTF!??

158

Holocaust is a statist myth used to destroy Free Speech & justify Total War. It has to be shown as it is, a lie to justify war and destroy civil liberties.

“Look, we don’t want to take your liberties or your money, but there are bad enemies somewhere far away and you are going to be sent there to fight for us, and your taxes will be raised for the war, and your friends interned, and history rewritten…”

War is the health of the state, and the state wants war to be painted as necessary and good, against evil forces only the state can fight.

Destroy the holocaust myth and we will be free to start doing real questions.

Stop at the holocaust and you will be guided, controlled, “there were bad people, make a holocaust and that’s all, don’t dare to look further!”

159

If there were no gas chambers, what was the Holocaust? If there was no Holocaust, what was WWII?

If we take the Holocaust out the equation (whether it be during WWII, or looking back now) what was British and American intervention in WWII?

One could say Pearl Harbor was our reasoning for entering WWII, but if you want to go into a Pearl Harbor conspiracy we knew beforehand that Japan was going to attack us (my history class even discussed this). Instead of preparing for that, we let it happen and made sure it was bloody as hell to really get support for war. Another Lusitania, right? Well, Japan isn’t Germany, so why Germany? If Japan was our problem we could put all efforts into Japan, but we didn’t. We went to Europe. The British jumped in, and I’ve read (I don’t know the sources, but you can look it up) that Hitler had no intention of invading Britain.

After the war Germany is on trial, who pleads not guilty, and it’s decided it’s all on them (the winners, of course, decide this), and then we tack the Holocaust on to it. All of the sudden the Soviets became our enemy. If hindsight was 20/20 wouldn’t it have made more sense to make a pact with Germany and stop Soviet imperialism? Who had a more devastating effect on Europe, Nazi Germany or the Soviets?

160

First, I said “even on non libertarian grounds”. Second, it isn’t the holocaust in itself, its how its used in political mythology.

Yeah there’s a lot of doublethink going on… Its about how evil THEY are and how pure WE are, so whatever WE did was okay. They myth needs smashing.