Video games and War

Economics Political Theory
141

I was mocking the lie you posted with sarcasm.

You haven’t proven that yet.

No, because there have been mostly two responses to my posts in this thread. People ignore them, and people try to rationalize their behaviour. The people who rationalize, are generally claiming that there is a difference between simulating violence, and acting violent IRL.

To which I would then reply

Would anyone here be opposed to a game where players could simulate hurting someone you love (family member for example)?

Would you play such a game (since it is only a game)?

142

The two aren’t analogous. Video games feature violence against totally fictional people as a general rule, and when it’s against actual historical characters, it’s almost universally bad ones (I can’t imagine anyone being opposed to shooting Nazis in Medal of Honor or Soviets in Operation Flashpoint).

143

Some games like Metal Gear Solid are pacifistic in tones and theme despite the glory violence.

144

I’ve been playing games since I was a wee lad, from Baldur’s Gate and StarCraft to ‘ultra-violent’ games like Postal, Soldier of Fortune and GTA. I also enjoy military shooters like Call of Duty and Operation Flashpoint (America’s Army isn’t very good).

Their ability to simulate (and stimulate!) anything resembling actual violence is overrated.

145

the point is, it is military propaganda. there are direct links provided in this thread to point out the direct involvment of the military in making video games. it’s to prepare those that have this tendency. how somebody acquires such a tendency would be far too much of an open debate. but the factual trail of the military making video games, along with the military surveying new recruits to tally how many of them came to the military due to video games is the ordinary feedback loop that any business model uses to find out how much their advertising is working.

obviously to some people these are simply games. obviously to other people it is how they prepare to do battle. and for the military to make technology that mimics video game components makes it an easy adaption mechanism from ones home to battlefield tank.

146

That was a brutal game. You could actually blow off body parts and if you decapitated them you would hear a sucking sound.

147

My argument is that games are no different than any other type of fictional medium. Do you not read any fiction what so ever? Many of my favorite classic novels had plenty of violence. I also have played some implied violent games and watch somewhat violent movies(The ones I can tolerate, I have a weak stomach).

I’ll admit I cannot hold myself to that standard, can you? Aside from that, there are video games that have provided some truly brilliant experiences. Their artistic value or intellectual value, truely something to cherish. Take Braid, or Portal for example. The point of those two games isn’t the violence at all, but the puzzles, the art, ect…

I’ll be the first to admit that recent games have been lacking severely in story content. Most of the story’s are fairly cheesy and ridiculous. Though before the time of insane graphics we were blessed with some fairly indept story based games like FF3/2 ect. On occasion today you will find things of that scale. Story’s that if written would have been just as good.

148

Planescape: Torment had the greatest story ever in a game, hands down. The setting, characters, and art were top notch. A truly intelligent game.

149

It is different, clearly. Only an idiot would claim otherwise. Obviously, what I see on the screen are pixels which have been rendered by my graphics card according to a program. There’s no real person’s rights being violated. In fact, no rights being violated at all. I’m using my property in the manner which I see fit–and not harming anyone.

Ah, the conflation of the aesthetic and the moral. Please don’t do that again. It makes you look really stupid when you do.

150

Didn’t play it, but from what I recall from the reviews it was also a game that was propagandistic. In the sense that it was one of the the “don’t bother with an actual story, everybody knows the Russians and Arabs are evil” products.

151

I agree, but I don’t know that it undermines the point I am making.

I do, but generally not of the violent sort.

Ditto here. My point is, as I continue to make my transformation into someone who doesn’t just give lip service to peace and markets, but actually wants to be a part of them, the attraction to violence, movies with massive property destruction, themes of sadism or fear aren’t what turn my crank anymore.

I’m not judging someone who enjoys this stuff. They are not “bad libertarians” but it is amusing and tragic to see people equivocate and rationalize. If as some have indicated, it is about two totally different ethical concepts, I can buy that. But then I think the case can be made that anything that happens in VR which conflicts with libertarian ideals (say non-aggression) is ok as well. I mean, is it worse to shoot someone in a game or to rape them? I want to get into the mind of people who can justify playing at shooting but not at raping. Is it just a cultural no-no? Sort of reminds me of that lousy movie that came out (last year?) Gamer, in which there is a virtual world of violence, and one of debauchery. And the violent world is held up as the more manly and courageous, while the debauched world (of voluntary relations) is treated as slimy and amoral.

If you’re asking me if I am the perfect libertarian man, I am not. I have many, many failures which I try to address. I struggle with the issue of following the state’s decrees every day, knowing full well that they are illegitimate and unjust. I was actually quite depressed about it in the last 4 months of 2009. So no, I don’t claim to never read anything with any mention of violence, or to participate in any media which has violence, but I love Stargate, and can now barely watch it with the blatant militarism and pro-state stuff in it. Despite the great sci-fi backdrop, the show is basically a mockery of what I would hope exploration would be. And likewise, I saw the trailer for the new Iron Man, and all I could think throughout, is how much private property gets destroyed in order to protect people’s private property.

That sort of doublethink is exactly what the state relies on.

Maybe if libertarians stop supporting pro-violence or pro-state entertainment, there will be less of it, and maybe even a market for entertainment about markets, which I would consider to be double good. Diminish the state, raise up markets.

If only we could align our aesthetics with our values. I can’t imagine it’s easy to preach peace and non-aggression when everyone knows one spends hours each day getting virtual kills.

I don’t doubt that. But the FPS genre and even the RTS strategy genre (much to my dismay) have become very hollow and almost unplayable for people who are entertained by building rather than destroying.

152

I wasn’t lying about anything- it was an opinion based on how I felt from z1235’s statement that all games look the same to him- and anyone that agrees with that. Maybe I should’ve clarified who I was referring to- because again I wasn’t talking about anyone who finds violent games abhorrent. There was no intention to deceive anyone here so quit that already.

That’s nonsense. The fact that I’m willing to talk to you about it is proof enough. If you don’t think so then I’ll make the judgement that you’re being hard-headed for the sake of being hard-headed.

Did I - at any point try to rationalize the violence in videogames? No I didn’t- so why keep bringing that up in reference to anything I said. All I really did in this thread was talk about what I thought was the beauty that there can be in videogames and people should try them out instead of just ignoring them on the basis that they are video games. You’re putting me in the category of people who are rationalizing the behavior of simulating violence- don’t do that when its not the case.

153

I don’t understand the argument here I’m lost and rather confused? How are people associating actual human life with pixels? If you are using it as alternative to actually practice killing REAL individuals then I would be a little nervous, but other than that… I fail to see the argument.

Liberty Student you should try and play Left 4 Dead 2.

154

Of course it does! You’re trying to blur the line between fantasy and reality. Won’t work.

Sounds like a case of subjective value preference.

Yes, you are. It’s amusing that you can bald-facedly lie about that, as well as bald-facedly conflate fantasy and reality. Tell me: do you really think that Peter Pan exists? What about Batman? Luke Skywalker?

155

By practicing the same sort of doublethink the state tries to inculcate in the sheep. That’s how.

156

I assume you’ll agree that’s what the role of propaganda plays. To blur the lines between what is fantasy and what is real. Before a person shoots in war they first have a go at target practice.

157

And yet clearly The Lord of the Rings trilogy is fantasy. Fiction. Right?

The problem comes in when people want to equate fantasy with reality–when they want us to believe that we’ve always been at war with Eastasia or that 2 + 2 = 5. Yes, propaganda plays that role.

158

of course. i know logic too much to say otherwise, but how many people have you come across that don’t understand logic? i know more than one as you’ve argued with numerous that have passed through this forum on the invalidity or validity of their use of logic.

indeed. Aristotilean logic generally isn’t taught in public schools and I believe Catholic schools dropped it from their cirriculum in the 1990’s. There’s people on TV or for that matter, people that set-up on a podium in front of a white building and say something and most people think of it as fact. They take their word on it. They believe it. And any questioning of it is demonized into being either a conspiracy or the person is denounced as a leftist or rightist but the facts or logic are hardly ever actually debated in the so-called mainstream public arena. How many people would jump off a bridge if Obama or Bush asked them to in the name of humanitarian or national security priorities.

here’s a list of what’s been subverted in the classroom: logic, increasingly sound theoretical economics (if not near or at 100%), history is told through the eyes of the victor, sociology is a joke with their emphasis on survey’s and theoreticals on how society can be construed in a positivist or natural science way, picking up a trade is still demonized over going to the university for some Art degree that will only find most people a job at McDonald’s, etc… I’m generalizing here.

159

Do I really need to go back, and pull your admission that you claimed things which weren’t true?

But this is a strawman. Who said they avoided the games because they are games? The gist of the discussion is the content, not the medium.

Do you think the violence in games is appealing?

160

Do I really need to go back over and over and explain how YOU claimed things that weren’t true regarding my point about certain people being out of touch with their emotions? When I bring up your lie- you call it sarcasm and let yourself off scot free. My opinion about something isn’t a lie- its how I felt. When I was talking about games- I was talking about videogames as a genre in general. So when you responded to me I thought you were putting all games in that one category of being violent. I wasn’t out to deceive anyone- that’s what a lie is- the way you’re painting me. It was a simple mistake you’re getting dramatic over- but its a clever way to make me out to be someone that can’t be trusted.

I mentioned who said it already a bunch of times- and bolded his account name. He mentioned that he didn’t like games and finds them to be all the same. I apologize if I put you in that category- but since you responded to me I thought you were in agreement with him- lol that’s the only reason me and you are even having a back and forth.

I’m indifferent to violence in games. Some people find it appealing- to me if that’s the only selling point in game then its probably a poor game. I’ve mentioned a few times(even linked you guys to a trailer)- to the types of games I find appealing and why I do. Violence was never one of the reasons.