Hoppe's Argumentation Ethics: Stances of Prominent Austrians

The purpose of this thread is to categorize prominent Austrians who have weighed in on the debate regarding Hoppe’s argumentation ethics. For the purposes of this thread, I am not particularly interested in the debate itself; rather, I am looking to put together a project which details the various reasons why Austrian scholars are for or against this argument. There are several resources scattered across the internet, but there are no resources (to my knowledge) that provide a comprehensive overview of the entire community. If you are going to list a name, please provide a link to some evidence. I don’t want to go by rumors.

My incomplete list.

In favor:

Murray Rothbard: http://mises.org/daily/4629

Jeffrey Tucker: http://blog.mises.org/13557/hoppes-argumentation-ethics-again/

Stephen Kinsella: http://mises.org/daily/5322

Walter Block: http://mises.org/journals/jls/22_1/22_1_31.pdf

In opposition:

Bob Murphy: http://mises.org/journals/jls/20_2/20_2_3.pdf

Gene Callahan: http://mises.org/journals/jls/20_2/20_2_3.pdf

Roderick Long: http://praxeology.net/unblog05-04.htm#10

I think it would be interesting to categorize the various opposing arguments and see who falls into each one. Something like:

Conflation of use and ownership: Long (maybe?) Murphy and Callahan (they kind of fall into here)

Formal/Structural disagreement: Knott, Yeager

Empirically unsound: Friedman

There’s an entire Symposium dedicated to Hoppe’s theory in the Nov. '88 issue of Liberty. Oddly enough I have a hard copy on hand but no link. Anyway, every article in there is critical, but I don’t think that means that every author is “opposed” to the entire idea. Tibor Machan and Douglas Rasmussen are pretty tough on Hoppe, but in the scheme of things, their own ethical philosophies are much closer to his than someone like Friedman.

Conversely, David Gordon’s is the most sympathetic out of the bunch (after Rothbard’s), but its not clear from the article whether he personally endorses Hoppe’s position.

Yep. This is the idea, but first I just wanted to get a broad overview. Do you have links to any of those positions?

David Gordon is tough to analyze with this: http://mises.org/daily/2313 and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kIo46oIXtY (See 6 minute mark, but the whole video is worth watching).

http://mises.org/journals/liberty/Liberty_Magazine_November_1988.pdf

The symposium starts on page 44. It has ten articles plus a rejoinder by Hoppe. Enjoy

Excellent resourse! Thank you.

Tom Woods likes it. Source: libertychat.com Q &A *lol (I asked).

Guido Hülsmann is in favor - http://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae7_4_4.pdf

Larry J. Sechrest is - http://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae7_4_3.pdf

Frank van Dun is - http://libertarianpapers.org/2009/19-van-dun-argumentation-ethics/

Lesser known:

  1. “Action-Based Jurisprudence: Praxeological Legal Theory in Relation to Economic Theory, Ethics, and Legal Practice” by Konrad Graf

  2. “A Reply to the Current Critiques Formulated Against Hoppe’s Argumentation Ethics,” by Marian Eabrasu

  3. Hopp(e)ing Onto New Ground: A Rothbardian Proposal for Thomistic Natural Law as the Basis for Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s Praxeological Defense of Private Property,” by Jude Chua Soo Meng

mikachusetts:

"There’s an entire Symposium dedicated to Hoppe’s theory in the Nov. '88 issue of Liberty. Oddly enough I have a hard copy on hand but no link. Anyway, every article in there is critical, but I don’t think that means that every author is “opposed” to the entire idea. Tibor Machan and Douglas Rasmussen are pretty tough on Hoppe, but in the scheme of things, their own ethical philosophies are much closer to his than someone like Friedman."

Yep. And there’s a reason for that ;).

The problem is that self-ownership is a very complex/synthetic concept - it cannot be exhausted by lingual description (as all analytic concepts can be). It makes sense to use such complex/synthetic concepts as axioms for things that cannot be disputed (such as one’s own urge to act or conscious awareness of the world). This is what Mises does with the action axiom. But it doesn’t make sense to use this kind of argument for disputes over normative principles exactly because there is simply too much room for “yeah but” arguments.

The whole idea of formal deductive argument is that there is no room for "yeah but"s… everything is clearly either logically valid or invalid and the argument is reduced to a matter of agreement/disagreement over axioms. If someone says “I don’t agree to that assumption” it’s no use to say “but you must!” - if there isn’t agreement over the axioms, there simply isn’t agreement at all. If Alice says to Bob “You do not own yourself”, it’s no use for Bob to argue that Alice must believe he owns himself since she is arguing with him. It could be argued that Bob may deduce that Alice secretly does believe that Bob owns himself but there is no sense in which Bob can compel Alice not to lie or “prove” that she must really believe that he owns himself.

Clayton -

“The problem is that self-ownership is a very complex/synthetic concept - it cannot be exhausted by lingual description (as all analytic concepts can be).”

Nope.

"The answer to the question what makes my body “mine” lies in the obvious fact that this is not merely an assertion but that, for everyone to see, this is indeed the case. Why do we say “this is my body”? For this a twofold requirement exists. On the one hand it must be the case that the body called “mine” must indeed (in an intersubjectively ascertainable way) express or “objectify” my will. Proof of this, as far as my body is concerned, is easy enough to demonstrate: When I announce that I will now lift my arm, turn my head, relax in my chair (or whatever else) and these announcements then become true (are fulfilled), then this shows that the body which does this has been indeed appropriated by my will. If, to the contrary, my announcements showed no systematic relation to my body’s actual behavior, then the proposition “this is my body” would have to be considered as an empty, objectively unfounded assertion; and likewise this proposition would be rejected as incorrect if following my announcement not my arm would rise but always that of Müller, Meier, or Schulze (in which case one would more likely be inclined to consider Müller’s, Meier’s, or Schulze’s body “mine”). On the other hand, apart from demonstrating that my will has been “objectified” in the body called “mine,” it must be demonstrated that my appropriation has priority as compared to the possible appropriation of the same body by another person.

As far as bodies are concerned, it is also easy to prove this. We demonstrate it by showing that it is under my direct control, while every other person can objectify (express) itself in my body only indirectly, i.e., by means of their own bodies, and direct control must obviously have logical-temporal priority (precedence) as compared to any indirect control. The latter simply follows from the fact that any indirect control of a good by a person presupposes the direct control of this person regarding his own body; thus, in order for a scarce good to become justifiably appropriated, the appropriation of one’s directly controlled “own” body must already be presupposed as justified. It thus follows: If the justice of an appropriation by means of direct control must be presupposed by any further-reaching indirect appropriation, and if only I have direct control of my body, then no one except me can ever justifiably own my body (or, put differently, then property in/of my body cannot be transferred onto another person), and every attempt of an indirect control of my body by another person must, unless I have explicitly agreed to it, be regarded as unjust(ified).[7]"

[7]Informal translation from Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Eigentum, Anarchie und Staat (Manuscriptum Verlag, 2005, pp. 98-100; originally published in 1985).

“This is what Mises does with the action axiom. But it doesn’t make sense to use this kind of argument for disputes over normative principles exactly because there is simply too much room for “yeah but” arguments.”

Nope.

"Let me start by asking what is wrong with the position taken by Mises and so many others that the choice between values is ultimately arbitrary? First, it should be noted that such a position assumes that at least the question of whether or not value judgments or normative statements can be justified is itself a cognitive problem. If this were not assumed, Mises could not even say what he evidently says and claims to be the case. His position simply could not exist as an arguable intellectual position.

At first glance this does not seem to take one very far. Indeed, it still seems to be a far cry from this insight to the actual proof that normative statements can be justified and that it is only the libertarian ethic which can be defended. This impression is wrong, however, and there is already much more won here than might be suspected. The argument shows us that any truth claim, the claim connected with any proposition that it is true, objective or valid (all terms used synonymously here), is and must be raised and settled in the course of an argumentation. Since it cannot be disputed that this is so (one cannot communicate and argue that one cannot communicate and argue), and since it must be assumed that everyone knows what it means to claim something to be true (one cannot deny this statement without claiming its negation to be true), this very fact has been aptly called “the a priori of communication and argumentation.”

Arguing never consists of just free-floating propositions claiming to be true. Rather, argumentation is always an activity, too. However, given that truth claims are raised and settled in argumentation and that argumentation, aside from whatever it is that is said in its course, is a practical affair, it follows that intersubjectively meaningful norms must exist-precisely those which make some action an argumentation-which have a special cognitive status in that they are the practical preconditions of objectivity and truth."

The Economics and Ethics of Private Property p.314-15 ~ Hoppe

"The whole idea of formal deductive argument is that there is no room for “yeah but"s… everything is clearly either logically valid or invalid and the argument is reduced to a matter of agreement/disagreement over axioms. If someone says “I don’t agree to that assumption” it’s no use to say “but you must!” - if there isn’t agreement over the axioms, there simply isn’t agreement at all. If Alice says to Bob “You do not own yourself”, it’s no use for Bob to argue that Alice must believe he owns himself since she is arguing with him. It could be argued that Bob may deduce that Alice secretly does believe that Bob owns himself but there is no sense in which Bob can compel Alice not to lie or “prove” that she must really believe that he owns himself.”

Nope.

The a priori of argumentation, or argumentation ethics offers the praxeological proof which establishes self-ownership as an axiom. It serves as a negative critique of justifiable norms. It bounds the scope of norms that can be consistently justified without pain of contradiction.

It’s meta-normative, it establishes what you have a right to do. It does not say what you ought or should do. In this sense, being an axiomatic-deductive legal theory based on action it is not a part of ethics at all.

Clayton, have you come to accept what inter-subjectively ascertainable is yet, and are no longer confusing it with “objective” ?

Right on, Conza. By the way, do you have a link to that translation of Hoppe’s full Eigentum, Anarchie und Staat you provided? Or is that just an excerpt you’ve found elsewhere?

Right on, Conza. By the way, do you have a link to that translation of Hoppe’s full Eigentum, Anarchie und Staat you provided? Or is that just an excerpt you’ve found elsewhere?

Thank you sir :). The latter - an excerpt found elsewhere. I forget where though. I haven’t tried to digg up a translation either, might try soon. Let us know if you find anything.

I love this issue because it’s so damn controversial and the intellectual positions for both sides are almost always superb in quality. It always generates good friendly debate within the Austrian community.

Does anyone know where Lew Rockwell stands on this issue? I bet he would have some interesting things to say about this.

@Conza:

Your argument proves too much. If Alice owns herself, then she has the power to lie, to contradict herself and to be a hypocrite. Bob cannot have any argument which compels Alice not to lie, contradict herself or be a hypocrite. Every logical argument is implicitly prefixed with the statement, “If you don’t want to contradict yourself, then …” If Alice is a self-owner, she may even assign her own private definitions to words, words such as “argument” “lie” “hypocrisy” “contradiction” “false” and so on.

What Alice does not control is the definition of words as everyone except Alice uses them. You can call this “objective” or “inter-subjective” meaning or whatever you like, but the essential attribute of language is that it is a posteriori. Language arises not from philosophers in armchairs arguing out modus ponens - it arises from actual usage.

Clayton -

Re: Your argument proves too much. If Alice owns herself, then she has the power to lie, to contradict herself and to be a hypocrite. Bob cannot have any argument which compels Alice not to lie, contradict herself or be a hypocrite. Every logical argument is implicitly prefixed with the statement, “If you don’t want to contradict yourself, then …” If Alice is a self-owner, she may even assign her own private definitions to words, words such as “argument” “lie” “hypocrisy” “contradiction” “false” and so on.

It proves just enough .

[center]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUIHO2Yuxc4[/center]

This is an excerpt where Hoppe responds to the critique of the universalizability principle, the absurdity of a private language, Ludwig Wittgenstein and contradiction. Hoppe’s response starts at 4.28+ but the intro question helps put things into perspective.

Re: “What Alice does not control is the definition of words as everyone except Alice uses them. You can call this “objective” or “inter-subjective” meaning or whatever you like, but the essential attribute of language is that it is a posteriori. Language arises not from philosophers in armchairs arguing out modus ponens - it arises from actual usage.”

Seems like you need to take a refresher course. [Note on “objective, intersubjectively ascertainable”] A friendly introduction to Hoppe’s AE

A Critique Of Hoppean Ethics (‘argumentation ethics’)

http://nielsio.tumblr.com/post/16528520459/a-critique-of-hoppean-ethics-argumentation-ethics

I don’t think Hoppe would stand by his argument that an individual cannot consistently use a private language in the same sense that he can consistently use a public language. I can refer to a book as a “farfignewton” from here on out. I may do so for the rest of my life and use this substitution as consistently as I would have otherwise used the word “book.” I can even construct a private - yet consistent - grammar.

The public nature of language arises from its role in communication. If I’m not trying to communicate then, in principle, there is no obstacle to having a private language. In fact, there may be some use in thinking of the mnemonics, habits and work patterns peculiar to an individual (for example, leaving a blank Post-It note on the fridge as a reminder to check the mail) as a kind of private language - such a private language is clearly consistent with the action axiom.

*shrug

I looked over the post and, in my opinion, the terminology conceals more than it reveals. The distinction between subjective and objective is controversial enough without multiplying the controversy with singular/plural. I think that modern philosophy of consciousness - as exemplified by the work of David Chalmers, for example - provides a more lucid framework for debating these issues.

Clayton -

Here is a nice video of Tom Woods explaining argumentation ethics (doing a good job).

Here is another small critique of AE (“A Generalization and Critique of Hoppean Ethics”, Andrew T. Young), accepting it almost completely but then arguing that a certain rule of ownership (“control share”) is an unaccounted for counter example.

It however fails to notice the proposed norm is not a valid rule of ownership at all, as it can simultaneously justify multiple conflicting wants over the same resource. There are also some other small mistakes there. I’m adding it for reference.

Here is mine awkwardly named "Hoppe’s Argumentation Ethics: A User Friendly, Neighborly Introduction", it has been revised a bit since last posted.

BTW, some time ago I’ve stumbled across a working draft of a paper by Marian Eabrasu, who defended AE, criticizing AE. I mailed him some feedback. Anyway, he asked not to quote from it, and it hanen’t been published (probably never will..), so I’m not attaching it here.

Re: “I don’t think Hoppe would stand by his argument that an individual cannot consistently use a private language in the same sense that he can consistently use a public language.”

No, he would stand behind Wittgenstein and his private language argument. The idea of a private language is really incoherent. If a langauge is a social phenonmon, how can it then be private? You can make up your own words to whatever, but when you communicate with anyone you enter the public sphere. You clearly don’t know what it is; or what Hoppe was actually referring to… your points miss the mark.

What a private language is

If someone were to behave as if they understood a language which no-one else can make sense of, we might call this an example of a private language.[3] It is not sufficient here, however, for the language to simply be one that has not yet been translated. In order to count as a private language in Wittgenstein’s sense, it must be in principle incapable of translation into an ordinary language - if for example it were to describe those inner experiences supposed to be inaccessible to others.[4] The private language being considered is not simply a language in fact understood by one person, but a language that in principle can only be understood by one person. So the last speaker of a dying language would not be speaking a private language, since the language remains in principle learnable. A private language must be unlearnable and untranslatable, and yet it must appear that the speaker is able to make sense of it.

The Beetle in a box

The Beetle in a Box is a famous thought experiment that Wittgenstein introduces in the context of his investigation of pains.[16]

Pains occupy a distinct and vital place in the philosophy of mind for several reasons.[17] One is that pains seem to collapse the appearance/reality distinction.[18] If an object appears to you to be red it might not be so in reality, but if you seem to yourself to be in pain you must be so: there can be no case here of seeming at all. At the same time, one cannot feel another person’s pain, but only infer it from their behavior and their reports of it.

If we accept pains as special qualia known absolutely but exclusively by the solitary minds that perceive them, this may be taken to ground a Cartesian view of the self and consciousness. Our consciousness, of pains anyway, would seem unassailable. Against this, one might acknowledge the absolute fact of one’s own pain, but claim skepticism about the existence of anyone else’s pains. Alternatively, one might take a behaviorist line and claim that our pains are merely neurological stimulations accompanied by a disposition to behave.[19]

Wittgenstein invites us to imagine a community in which the individuals each have a box containing a “beetle”. “No one can look into anyone else’s box, and everyone says he knows what a beetle is only by looking at his beetle.”[16]

If the “beetle” had a use in the language of these people, it could not be as the name of something - because it is entirely possible that each person had something completely different in their box, or even that the thing in the box constantly changed, or that each box was in fact empty. The content of the box is irrelevant to whatever language game it is used in.

By analogy, it does not matter that one cannot experience another’s subjective sensations. Unless talk of such subjective experience is learned through public experience the actual content is irrelevant; all we can discuss is what is available in our public language.

By offering the “beetle” as an analogy to pains, Wittgenstein suggests that the case of pains is not really amenable to the uses philosophers would make of it. “That is to say: if we construe the grammar of the expression of sensation on the model of ‘object and designation,’ the object drops out of consideration as irrelevant.”[16]

Re: “I looked over the post and, in my opinion, the terminology conceals more than it reveals. The distinction between subjective and objective is controversial enough without multiplying the controversy with singular/plural. I think that modern philosophy of consciousness - as exemplified by the work of David Chalmers, for example - provides a more lucid framework for debating these issues.”

Ugh, then maybe you should consult the cited sources aye? I think it clarifies the issue remarkably well. Very dismissive, you don’t have a critique on it’s accuracy besides some notions of already existent ‘controveries’? Eh? What is the work of David Chalmers, it’s relevancy and what’s this lucid framework?

@Conza: OK, we seem to be going down rabbit-trails and not addressing the central point of disagreement that I have with Hoppe. I agree that there is an objective component to right and wrong (satisfaction/dissatisfaction) in that there are definite courses of action which lead to unhappiness and other, definite courses of action that lead to happiness. Similarly for inter-personal ethics, there are definite rights and wrongs, that is, there are definite courses of action which lead to conflict and misery and other, definite courses of action that lead to prosperity and cooperation.

Where I disagree with Hoppe, Rothbard et. al. is over how these definite courses of action are discovered. Good and evil (that is, satisfaction and dissatisfaction), and right and wrong (behavior that leads to peaceful cooperation or conflict) can only be discovered a posteriori, through a process of trial and error. The view of Hoppe, Rothbard et. al. is that the laws of human behavior for personal satisfaction (asocial ethics) and interpersonal cooperation and prosperity (social ethics) can be deduced from first principles through a priori means. This is incorrect for the same basic reason that the correct price of oranges in downtown Galveston, TX cannot be deduced from first principles through a priori means.

Clayton -

Another critique, mostly about AE, by one Gerard Radnitzky who was a neo-classical and a smart guy. First he misunderstands Hoppe’s critique of critical rationalism (thinking it’s dependent on a counter example), then arguing against Hoppe’s supposed bridging of the is-ought dichotomy (synonymous with justificationist ethics in his view), and the usage of Kantian terminology… Finally he argues against apriorism in economics citing “charity” as a counter example to trade being mutually beneficial…