Socialists at the gates!

Economics Economics Questions
1

I was walking back after having done 2 exams this morning, to encounter the Socialist workers party outside the gates to my University. As always, I could not help but come to talk with them and engage them in debate. I was happy to tell them why I disagreed with them, and even agreed with the woman I should read Marx’s Capital 1st hand(I did try to urge her to read the Austrian school 1st hand, but she seemed not too enthusiastic) so that I am not basing my impressions based completely on what others have said. Judging by her responses she seemed to have an a priori impression of all profit being neceesarily exploitation of some kind of labour, and seemed to cling pretty solidly to this. I tried to engage some basic fundamental arguments regarding value, exchange and private property based on the Austrian school, but I did get the impression that people probably just blank out that which does not appeal to their immediate intuition.

Having said that, i myself have not read many socialist books myself, so I’ve decided to engage in reading them in the future along with Keynesian and neoclassical economics. I told them I did agree with their petition about MPs’ expenses, because I don’t think there should be a government. They said they don’t either, I asked them how they would have a socialist system, and they seemed to just think it would happen. Is this based on the assumption that a government is required to uphold private property rights of the evil capitalists in the first place? Also, could someone explain to mw how these would be upheld without one?

Also, I’m at the University of Birmingham, and I find this a disturbing trend, the amount of socialist agitation there has been recently. I don’t see anyone shouting the counterargument, hence I felt the urge of doing something, even sticking up a poster opposite theirs saying “Capitalism is good!”, or maybe even a large T shirt stall selling marx T shirts, hiring some exploited labour on the way! Is the amount of support for socialism generally increasing around the UK, especially at other campuses?

I feel like doing something myself, in any case the woman ended the conversation with me once she realised I wouldn’t join her cause or sign her petition, I suspect I quite upset her mentioning how people who called themselves socialists had killed far more people than what she considered her ideological opposite; the facists. I didn’t really feel like staying and arguing with people who didn’t want to talk with me, and I was just wanting to chill after my exams so I went home. What can we do? I 've felt like engaging societies at my University, and perhaps speaking at them or something.

On the plus side! While revising yesterday I met a member of the Labour Party who is a libertarian! I always feel particularly happy when I meet them, I think i know about 3 or 4 at my University now! Indeed posting feels like “Libertarians anonymous” in an increasingly socialist and statist world…

2

That’s baffling! How can they justify being a libertarian while being a member of one of the most unlibertarian parties in the UK? It’s like Hitler chairing a meeting of the Jewish GLBT Communist society.

Yes that’s a favorite of mine too. Of course the response is always along the lines of “but it wasn’t real Communism/Socialism and this time it’d be different”

Some Unis have libertarian societies, or something like a Hayek society. If one doesn’t exist, then find some allies and make one!

With regard to engaging with socialists, it’s a good thing to do your homework beforehand. Understand the basis of their ideology and the arguments against it - there is plenty of material on this site to help you. Keep your arguments and logic simple - theft is theft, etc. and try and get them to think logically.

You can try and find some common ground with them too - like the expenses thing, but also with ‘social libertarian’ ideas such as abandoning drug legislation, abolishing copyright, freedom of speech etc. When arguing for free market ideals, try structuring your arguments to show how free markets bring about the kind of outcomes that socialists seem to want and how the status quo (and socialism in general) will prevent these outcomes from being reached.

I can understand your grief though. People with simplistic collectivist viewpoints can be frustrating to reason with. Good luck.

3

I think something I have learned is don’t make it obvious you’re a free market capitalist libertarian.

Like FreedomIsYellow said, go for points where you agree, and work from there. Most socialists are at the root anti-authority, or at least they have been in my experience. They want to overthrow capitalism because they believe the ridiculous myths that capitalism represses individuality, and makes us all into clones. Point out that the (vaguely) capitalist societies have always been the ones which have allowed individual expression through art, criticism of society etc. Point out that it is impossible to achieve equality.

They will turn off completely if you say anything good about the rich, say anything against gays, women, racial minorities. But you can attack the rich for being allied to politicians and corrupt. You can attack the British and American systems of “democracy” - most socialists hate these institutions. You can attack ridiculous nationalism and attack fascism.

Only once you have built rapport, and got them thinking that you’re similar to them, do you start opening them up to libertarian views. Say stuff like: I’m all for communism/socialism if that’s what people want, but what about those who don’t want to live in a commune? Show them how enforcing socialism on everyone is violently aggressive. Point out the fallacies in Marxian views of value, capital, profit etc., but always give Marx credit when you can (e.g. philosophy of history).

And you’re right, reading up on “their” stuff may help you - although I always preferred to read a critique (e.g. General Theory vs. The Failure of the “New Economics”; Das Kapital vs. Requiem for Marx)

4

I study at the University of West of England down in Bristol, and we are truly over run by lefties. It drives me crazy.

My theory is that university kids are coming out of a lifestyle where their parents provided everything they needed; they feel some need to cling onto this “I dont have to work” lifestyle.

“or maybe even a large T shirt stall selling marx T shirts”

Hah. Irony.

As for the Labour Libertarian, I find that very bizzare- no matter.

I myself am in the Uk Libertarian Party, despite their manifesto having faults (such as immigration- it’s not perfect but heads and tails above anything else). It may fall flat on its face like the US Libertarian party has, but until it does, IF it does, I’m willing to give it a try.

5

Some people do this, and I think it is a huge waste of time. I have one hardcore republican friend, and while he is great on fiscal conservatism, I have wasted countless hours of my life trying to get him off nationalism and the warfare state. I probably could have reached dozens of Ron Paul supporters with a more radical view then the fruitless results of arguing with someone (ignorant or not) ideologically committed to the opposite direction.

I think we try to hit too many home runs instead of focusing on working our way around the bases with singles and bunts.

6

We have to go after those not yet infected by the statist bug.

7

I think many of us have been hit for a “home run” at some point in our lives. I know I certainly was. Indeed, long before I came the Austrian school I did have many sympathies with some kind of “smart” managed socialism. It wasn’t until about 4 or 5 years ago, I read India Unbound by Gurcharan Das, that I started to see socialism as I currently see it. I remember a phrase I thought of to label the socialists in India: They are the ones who keep a poor country poor in the name of the poor.

It sickens me that India stagnated under socialism for over 30 years, yet when our current hampered economy fails people still seek to return to it, ignoring all its historical consequences. I really think the 3rd World would have fared much better without all the bad economics it imported from the west during the 20th century. Indeed, there’s a part of the book, where a chinese, or sout east asian bureacrat comments to an indian, that India’s problem has been that it has had too many economists!

I suppose this came without anyone arguing the case against me while I may have leant towards socialism, it came entirely out of my own reading and a beneficial circumstance one night when I was bored and my parents told me to find one of the books about India in my house.

8

Same. Or read the critique first and then the original work. You often miss out important flaws when reading the original the first time that may make it more powerful than it seems (and this goes for Austrian works too, though I have noticed they withstand criticism much better.)

9

Intriguingly, while I was revising last night I ended up meeting and talking to someone who told me who considered himself a left leaning liberal, had studied economics as a degree and hated it, before being delighted to find he’d read David Hume! I joked later with him he was possibly the only person who’d read Hume at our University, and I was possibly the only one who’d read Mises(intriguingly, however, I’ve found the only copy of Human Action being reserved and impossible to loan out for the past year, so maybe I’m wrong!).

We talked about many things and i explained my wolrdview, commenting on what hje said and found him to be quite well thought out. I introduced him to the ideas of the Austrian school and Mises.org. By the time we got back to revising(or trying to anyway, I didn’t get much done last night[:D]), we reached a kind of classical liberal consensus. I must say I do sympathise myself with anarchocapitalists, though I cannot fully justify their program, so I often fall back on a classical liberal viewpoint.

However, I have not read much Rothbard yet, and this was due to my conscious decision to read Mises first, so my assessments may change in light of new arguments brought forth by Rothbard and others.