Turning Socialists into Capitalists — Recommended method?

As a student, I often find myself arguing with socialists. I have organised many debates with socialists, and am holding conferences in Austrian economics.

Doing everything I can with my knowledge, in order to persuade socialists to understand economics, capitalism and rights…

I am still young however, so I’m sure there are better methods than I have used to convince people. (i.e. YouTube videos of Friedman, Sowell and Rand)

Which tools and methodology (i.e praxeology, natural rights &etc) would you recommend to undertake this task?

Thanks for all suggestions,

Samuel Marks

I would address “why” before “how”. What is the goal you are trying to achieve? To make more people propagating the ideas you like? To get a warm and fuzzy feeling from winning a dispute? To get reputation?

You might try pointing them to Gabriel Kolko’s book, The Triumph of Conservatism, if you detect they are sincere. Kolko was a socialist himself and his book shows how big business agitated for government regulation to get around the competiveness of the marketplace.

However, most socialists I know don’t read anything outside their own gospel, and usually they don’t understand that very well. Good luck.

Appeal to morality. Socialists love morality (oh what about the poor!) :slight_smile:

Whenever they argue for regulations, ask for examples. Why? Because this forum has a counter for almost any example of a “needed regulation.”

Make them think you’re a socialist and slowly thrown in libertarian sound bites. I like to use Mikhail Bakunin myself as a starter; admittedly he isn’t a libertarian, but he’s a good way to get them to focus more on the state.

Deleting my comment is like Cosmo telling women what men want. You can live in the echo chamber, or you can hear it straight from the horses mouth.

Nice to see arbitrary censorship of good advice tho. Thumbs up on that.

A model of the liberty message…this is what you can be

“I would address “why” before “how”. What is the goal you are trying to achieve? To make more people propagating the ideas you like? To get a warm and fuzzy feeling from winning a dispute? To get reputation?”

This is completely asinine. If, for example, the lives of many people and peace depends upon free trade, wouldn’t it be incumbent upon capitalists, etc. to argue for that position?

This is completely asinine. If, for example, the lives of many people and peace depends upon free trade, wouldn’t it be incumbent upon capitalists, etc. to argue for that position?

My message must have been unclear. I was not accusing the OP of anything, I just suggested that to answer his question better, it helps to know the ultimate goal.

Examples, examples, examples!

don’t tell them gov. creates monopolies, give them the real world example of this happening

don’t tell them gov. destroys jobs and wealth, give them the real world example of this happening

don’t tell them gov. kills thousands of innocent people in forgein countries, give them the real world example of this happening

don’t tell them our gov. has become a police state, give them the real world example of this happening

don’t tell them gov. makes prices higher by weeding out competition, give them the real world example of this happening

On the other hand, the problem with examples is that it can be easy for people to invoke special pleading on them.

theory and then the history.

take their view of history and then use theory to describe how that ‘could not possibly be the case that A led to Z, only Y could have’

you can tell them the theory, but they won’t believe you. Not until you prove that it is happening with examples.

Deleting my comment is like Cosmo telling women what men want. You can live in the echo chamber, or you can hear it straight from the horses mouth.

Nice to see arbitrary censorship of good advice tho. Thumbs up on that.

Don’t feel too special, now. This “missing post” problem has been occurring for tons of people on these boards:

Fixing it

ive learnt never to argue.be open with what you beleave for sure but if you are going to simply tell people they are wrong 24/7 you will not have much luck.my favouret line is when i realised its not goverments job to look after my friends and family was when i decided i would and i live by that "its payed off for me to lots of friends help me to"people who know me are usaly confused when i say im a capitalist being a good person not putting obligations on anyone is the strongest strarting point.make them want to know what you beleave and most good logic you present to them will at worst will make them respect your ideas not put them in the evil box. dont put there ideas in the evil box to . it does work i dont even realy try to make anyone a libertrian one friend helped found the green party here in nz and ended up rothbardian.people like to think they are on the side of good show them what the good side is..

Did anyone else feel dizzy reading this? Anyways I find that the best way to argue with socialists is from a practical rather than moral POV. If you employ the Molyneuxian trope of GOVT=GUNS you convince no one and don’t even build a case for free markets. I think a good place to start is on the Gilded Age and how it turned into the Progressive Era. Using statistics to show that the Gilded Age was actually a decentralist era economically speaking and how the Progressive Era was a centralizing one. This then obviously begs the questions of Central vs Free Banking, Federal Regulation vs Market Regulation, Property Rights vs Eminent Domain. Always be sure to tell the truth, that is, that these practices enrich the real robber barons Rockefeller, Morgan, KuhnLoeb and the like at the expense of the common working man so dear to the socialists heart (supposedly). As long as you make a strong case that free market capitalism has never significantly existed but rather corporatism, to the benefit of the people that OWS detest so vociferously, then I think it’s a good argument. Try to show how free markets are more egalitarian than state-capitalism. (By egalitarian I mean that the working man has a better standard of living, though it’s obviously not egalitarian because the rich are fantasically rich as well.) The truth really is our best weapon here, we don’t have to lie to convince people, only appeal to their reasoning capacities to examine their own lies.

It’s complex, but it can be done. You will need:

Kosher salt, holy water, a copy of Human Action, and fearlessness.

Approach the socialist calmly. Then make a circle around them with the salt. Lightly splash them with holy water by dipping your fingers in it and flicking them forward. As you splash them, rock while holding your copy of Human Action while demanding they solve the calculation problem.

Best of luck.

There is no universal method to doing this, the fact is that everyone is different in the reason for why they believe what they believe and what it is that will change they’re mind. This is what I reccomend

Step 1.

Decide whether or not this person can actually be convinced of your position or of any position that is not theirs. Sometimes it’s just better to come out and ask “what would convince you of my point?”. They cannot answer that nothing can because that makes them look like a close minded fool. Based upon their criteria (assuming you believe them and there aren’t other ) If the answer is that they cannot then there are other reasons for debating them, but the question of how to convince them has been answered: You cannot.

Step 2.

Attempt to fill the requirements that they set out. Continually refer to THEIR values. You are trying to convince them. As the praxeological law states men act according to their value preferences and therefore you must appeal to what it is that they want and they believe in. Remember that a belief should be a means, not an ends. You are a socialist, not because you value socialism, but because you value the ideals and the state of affairs brought about by socialism. If this can be met in a libertarian society then you should become a libertarian.

Step 3.

Be reasonable and to the point. Always try to give them some sort of exit strategy that prevents them from being humiliated. Assuming that the point of the debate is to convince them then you have to accept the fact that you are likely not going to be able to get them to go all the way. Especially when the debate is confrontational it’s extremely difficult to admitt that you were wrong to another person face to face. Allow them to take a moderate few and sow the seeds of libertarianism and doubt. Trying to make sure that it’s over time is a good idea too, of course. This also means that you must be sure to remain civil so as not to make it more confrontational and a matter of person vs. person, the loser being an idiot, instead we have to ensure that it’s ideas vs. ideas and that it’s understandable to believe what they believe, it’s a small mistake that needs to be corrected. Another very important thing to do is to ensure that you do not get sidetracked. I’ve done this so many times that it’s ridiculous, keep to the issue don’t get into arguments over irrelevant side conversations. Connect everything over to the actual issue at hand, make it understandable and clear.

Step 4.

Realize when a debate is not going anywhere and simply attempt to back out as well as possible.

Step 5.

Remember, you’re a salesman, you’re trying to sell an idea, keep everything that you can in mind, don’t talk about something that’s going to take ages to explain, keep it simple and keep it appealing.

Step 6.

Know the basic statist fallacies. Be able to argue against democracy, market misconceptions, the larger historical misconceptions, anarchistic misconceptions , incentive misconceptions, and basic logical fallacies such as is/ought, ad hominemm and most importantly correlation/causation.

Step 7.

Don’t get too wrapped up in it, remember, it’s just one person, you’re just one person. Don’t be too uptight, be fun while you’re talking, make it a fun conversation and don’t make them feel like they need to be angry about the issue. It’s all cool.

Also, pick out your targets selectively and attempt to research topics that you know are going to be important to them, don’t spend your time even trying to strike up conversations with someone who is unlikely to respond well. There’s a reason why democracy doesn’t work as a universal system.

Step 8. Send them to talk to Neodoxy, or give them links to his (upcoming) videos!!! :smiley: !!!