The Holocaust--what would the best way of stopping it have been from an Austrian perspective?

Miscellaneous History
21

Germany allowed the Jews to leave Germany, and those who remained were put into labor camps.

This is not entirely true. Very few Jews were allowed to leave Germany; emmigration was tightly regulated. Most Jews who were able to escape Germany did so prior to 1937. Those who remained were distributed, mostly amongst ghettos. The majority of the Jews killed during the Holocaust, however, were not German. They were Jews who lived in territories occupied by the Germans, including Poland and the Soviet Union. There were non-camp mass murders of Jews in both of these countries.

22

Jonathan, do you happen to know if people knew whether there were killings at all (just not to the extent of the Holocaust) or Jews just had bad living conditions, etc. due to the Nazis?

Like I said, I don’t know about the death camps (that was late war, anyways), but that the Germans had killed tens of thousands of Jews in Poland and Western Soviet Union was known. It’s hard to believe that millions of citizens of Kiev were oblivious to the killings which took place at Babi Yar, for example. It was also well known that the Germans had killed much of Poland’s leadership after their 1939 occupation.

From Wikipedia,

In the meantime, by the 1st of February [1943], the United States Office of War Information had decided not to release information about the extermination of the Jews because it was felt that it would mislead the public into thinking the war was simply a Jewish problem.

The above has to do with death camps. Babi Yar took place in late 1941.

23

The Nazis orchestrated and conducted the entire Holocaust operation practically out in the open. For everyone to see. The Nazis themselves were quite amazed by how far they can go with practically no serious outcry.

The Holocaust, I think, is unique in the way it was carried out. It was an interesting progression of dehumanization. For the most part, genocides have been pretty blatant. In other words, they are tantamount to mass murder. The Holocaust of the Jewish people was more than that. I don’t mean to say that it was worse, or anything like that (I’m not trying to quantify anything), only that the Jews went through a long period of dehumanization before any of them were killed in large numbers.

A very interesting perspective of how the Germans “played” with their treatment of Jews is shown in the film “A Film Unfinished”, which is edited reel of a never published movie of the Warsaw Ghetto (IIRC, the only footage of the Warsaw Ghetto in existence).

24

While I agree with Bert on:

Whenever the State teaches you about atrocities another State has committed, any State, it was probably severely exaggerated at the hands of special interests.

I find it hard to believe that all the photos and videos and people stories are faked or “out of context” so to speak. It happened not so long ago, after all. I could be more skeptical if it happened 1000 years ago, but it actually has been less than 100 years ago, and people are still alive to remember… And that’s astonishing how many other people will forget history just because it’s inconvenient for their own ideology or just world view in general…

Yeah, I was taught about Holocaust mostly in school and I believe many so called “facts” could be lies or just too broad generalizations etc. but to fake such things… it’s gotta be pretty damn hard.

I may be skeptical about “real numbers” of dead people. I don’t care about numbers though, I care about what humans are capable of doing in such times. And I am convinced almost 100 percent that it can be even worse in reality..

25

(my grandfather, a Jew who fought as a GI, however, said that he didn’t know when he joined that there was a genocide occuring; he only knew that treatment of Jews was well substandard).

Some say Hitler knew just as much too.

26

Most killings in Yugoslavia took place outside camps not within them.

27

Each of these videos is part of a series.

28

"Because National Socialism was driven by commons sense. Right. "

Debate him on the actual facts…

provide him with facts that prove there were gas chambers, etc…

I’m interested in this.

29

Ban nazi parties? And communists. That could have been effective.

30

It is a question of what facts are in dispute here. Is the Holocaust itself in dispute here? Or accuracy of certain aftermath accounts? The first case would be to argue with an irrational being. The second would be pointless.

Contrary to what is being portrayed here by certain skeptics, this was one event in history, which we do not have to rely on government indoctrination to learn about.

There are just too many accounts of survivors. Too many accounts by the Germans themselves. Too many accounts of eyewitnesses of the German special forces created for the sole task of tracking Jews down in occupied German territories. The gradual and deliberate policies of the dehumanization and humiliation of Jews in particular is just so well documented in not only Nazi propaganda, but also mainstream media outlets, and …

countless books , articles, and documented stories of the events at all levels and at all stages by different people at different ages from different places completely unrelated to each other. To dispute these events on the basis of how governments and their special interests may have mistreated or handled certain evidence is to completely miss the point about why these events are so undisputable.

31

Provide me with facts that millions of people were exterminated through the use of homicidal gas in the places known as death camps or concentration camps. Provide me with written evidence of Nazi officers that agreed to the use of gas chambers to eliminate prisoners. In my research I have found zero evidence, only on hearsay evidence, and thus people continue to regurgitate and believe it.

32

Conclusions can be extrapolated from witnesses and there are countless.

But the question to you is this: Do you deny that millions of Jews were murdered? Or do you just have a problem with the gas?

This is why I’m not going to wast my time with you. You want a written contract or something between Nazi troops and whomever that explicitly states in its terms: “You agree to gas people” What kind of gas are you on?

There are many survivors on both sides. Somehow, you must of missed them when looking for Hitler’s authentic signature.

33

Bert,

I am confused what your argument is. That gas chambers were used to kill millions of Jews, or that the Holocaust is a hoax?

34

Bert,

The videos you show are also full of logical fallacies. Their conclusions don’t follow from their own premises, even if some of them happen to be true.

This is just another illustration of why critical thinking is useless absent logical deductive reasoning.

35

I saw the last video and fortunately enough, there was also Michael Shermer here, a well known skeptic and libertarian. However, I was a little bit confused because he ignored Cole’s points that doors where opening in the inside and that they could have been opened from both sides. Shermer claimed, that nazis could have blocked doors with boxes, but then that would be pretty hard to do if doors are opening in the inside. Why make such crappy doors at all if you want to exterminate the juice? That’s one thing that bugged me thorugh entire show.

Another thing was the caller. How can we know it isn’t staged fraudulent caller? She claimed she saw soap and other things made from dead bodies. Shermer himself previously rejected this as a myth, but then ignored it when a caller was on. Why? It’s pretty poor job for him. I admire his work, I admire that he is also a libertarian skeptic, which is very rare among mainstream skeptic crowd.

Anyway, Bert, thanks for the videos, even if I don’t agree or don’t quite understand you. Yes, there are many inconsistencies and dishonesty among both sides. I am not convinced though, that jews weren’t gassed or killed just because of their jewishness (I mean, I believe they were, but so did other ethnic groups). But then again… it’s cool to ask questions no matter how inconvenient they are. Appealing to emotions, like the interviewer of that show did is poor tactics and Shermer should have known this. Still, it’s big contraversy, because it is highly political issue where 9/11 attacks look like a game in comparison..

36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram >?

37

Please gentlemen.

Before arguing, let’s put the cards on the table. Let’s put history on the table, documents, books, facts.

In discussions there are usually at least two sides. I beg everybody to ask themselves if they have heard, research or given a chance to both sides. Have you?

I humbly recommend just as a start, a short book to put into perspective things.

And the best documented research ever made on Hitler, freely available, you have no excuse now.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hitler/2001/HW1.pdf

Let’s remember that during WW2, Churchill suspended Habeas Corpus, arrested everybody who opposed him and his war, putting Admirals, Generals and hundreds of people in Jail, for years, no charges, no trial. An after that, a law was passed to make it illegal to oppose them and their version of history.

Churchill, De Gaulle and Eisenhower wrote 7.000 pages of diaries and books during the War, there is no mention at all of holocaust or extermination camps. There has been many independent researches by many international groups, no proof whatsoever of gas chamber, mass graves, nothing. It’s against common sense. Soviets murdered dozens of millions, with just a bullet. But the Nazis put people in prison, gave them food, blankets, prison uniforms for years to gas them later? Why the waste? It’s illogical. Occam razor, they were detained and put in prison for treason charges and keep there, they were allowed to leave the country for years, those who choose to remain were warned and put into prisons, because their Nation had declared war on them. Precautionary measures, as the US detained Japanese. Of course by libertarian ethics it’s still immoral but it’s not what it’s been exaggerated to make the war appear not a waste of millions of men and treasure for another European war and to advance the jewish agenda (which exists, check their power how they got a whole country and destroyed the most sacred right, free spech by putting into prison historian who dares to criticize them).

By the way, isn’t Mises Institute oppose to censorship? Why the poster didn’t start with… this historical event is the only one forbidden to be investigated and you can be put into prison for daring to oppose it’s supposed veracity or for asking for proofs.

It’s easy to understand, the Germans (and lots of countries and people) believe jews to be loyal only to the jews and were not allowed to escalate into government positions out of fear they will work against the country. Jews have strong bonds between them, double nationality and it’s a fact they have massive power with very little numbers. Non-jews fear their control and enacted laws in their countries to not allow jews into high power positions. The Jews were anger by that and declared boycott and economic and sabotage war against Germany for daring to not allow them into their Government/banking/corporations. They maneuver Britain and the US against them and launched a propaganda campaign.

But the war ended, it’s not necessary to maintain the propaganda and lies now.

Facts are clear, it was all lies (Allies=All-lies). Please, stop the Six Million died, they never did, but there were several millions of Germans who really died, burned by Churchill terrorist fire-bombing campaigns and Eisenhower murdered of surrendered Germans.

Did you know the Allies kept million of Germans as slaves for several years after the War? That they implemented a policy of hunger as revenge?

Have you read the 300.000 murdered in Dresden bombings? Did you know Hitler refused to fire-bomb Britain for months? He let them escape in Dunkirk and offer Peace several times. Meanwhile Churchill was busy detained those who oppose him and his supporters plans of War.

For God sakes, please, look at the result, two thirds of Europe under Communism, a war to save Poland.. by allying with the Soviets who invaded Poland! And leaving Poland under Communism forever!

Gulags and Soviet Terror were clearly known and public, allying with the Soviets instead of with Germany was the worst crime against humanity ever committed. The Americans and common-wealthers should be ashamed of the rulers that send them to fight those who respected them, wanted peace with them and were no threat to them, and all to help Communism.

Talking about the “Holocaust” of supposedly 6 millions (which no serious researcher defends now, at most a million, and due to hunger of the lasts years of bombing of Germany) when 60 million Christians were murder in the Soviet Union, who was lead in a 90% by Jews is insulting.

38

Was it okay for the French to resist German occupation, at least?

39

Facts are clear, it was all lies (Allies=All-lies)

This is likely the height of your scholarship

40

The French didn’t resist because they weren’t attacked, they were ask for neutrality and they say No.

They didn’t have to fight because they weren’t going to be invaded or attacked, Germany objective was the East. Their policy was to ask France for neutrality and guarantee that they would not attack Germany western flank while Germany was fighting on the other eastern flank.

France and Britain started the war, not Germany. It was Germany who was defending itself.

Was it Ok for Britain to declare War on Germany for a territorial dispute between Germany and German-land now occupied by an arrogant Poland waiving his British Protection while he occupied German/Prussian Danzig?

Was it Ok for Britain to start firebombing civilian cities?

Was it Ok for Britain to cut submarine cable connecting Germany and America in order to spread propaganda lies more effectively?

Was it Ok for France to keep millions of Germans as slave for years after the war had ended?

Was it Ok for France to murder in Nuremberg when the judges themselves were ashamed of the fake charges brought under torture and even committed by themselves too?